Natural Sound

[bonzo75]

I don't think it is, but I've noticed that many people use SETs with speakers that have far too little efficiency to really hear what the SET can do.

There are lots of people on this forum who do many wrong things, including matching wrong amps to wrong speakers and defending digital against analog, and not posting videos of their systems

 

[Amir]

The introduction and advocacy for "black backgrounds" as a sound attribute came out of the Pearson/TAS wing of audio reviewing. Today it is used regularly by F sometimes appearing with the modifier 'velvety'. Imagine that, attaching texture to blackness. And it is used by other (not all) reviewers and by forum dwellers who adopt the audiophile guild speak. It is not in Holt's Audio Glossary. I probably used it myself as a formative reviewer although I've stopped doing that.

In the reviews I read I do not recall seeing accounts that attempt to break it down further. When I used the term I intended it as a way to describe the separation of musicians from each other. Musician here, not musician there. It partly supports the notion of dimensionality or the bas-relief character of musicians standing out or fleshed out. I see this as a psycho-acoustic idealization of the live experience that is not rooted in that experience. I think that is in agreement with your first sentence.

I have not heard of it used to describe venue ambience. To me a black background is effectively the absence of ambience, the absence of energy. I can see how someone might connect black backgrounds with a low noise floor -- the reduction or absence of system noise -- and maybe some writers intend that meaning when they use it. Where I"ve seen it frequently in that regard is in the description or review of power distributors and power modifiers that apply filtering to certain frequency bands, removing or reducing energy that the designer believes is not part of the musical signal. Some like the attribute, perhaps because it is regarded as a positive by reviews or because the product they just bought does create a black background. The open question remains whether it is soley 'noise' that gets removed.

I find the 'black background' attribute largely undesirable. It adds an unreal character to music from my system and homogenizes sound. It is antithetical to what I find in the concert hall and I rather not add that characteristic to my listening experience.

Some records are more live and some studio records have more silent backgrounds but if the listener feels the “black background” in sound I think it will be about noise filtering in ac power or cables. In my experience “black background” is equal to killing micro dynamics.

Most AC filters, many AC cables, many power distributors, most virtual Ground systems (like cad gc3) all give us blacker background.


In my idea For non-expert listeners this is good but expert listeners do not like “black background”

 

[Atmasphere]

For some reason, you want to make this a general discussion about SET typology, and speakers. This personal system thread is about my specific Lamm ML2 and the specific speakers that Vladimir Lamm suggested would sound best with his amplifiers, the Vitavox CN191, early version from late 50s, which is a 16 ohm load and 105 DB efficient.

Speakers like this are rare and not very available today, so perhaps you want to discuss amplifiers that you design that may work better than my amplifiers on the speakers available today.

I agree with Bonzo. You keep making this point, and I keep mentioning that my amplifier and speakers don’t have the issues you keep describing.

You do.
So pointing out you did the right thing with your speakers was a bad thing?? FWIW, the prior two paragraphs don't quite make sense to me.

While speakers like yours are rare, there are speakers of similar capability made today, such as the Hartsfield reproduction made by Classic Audio Loudspeakers. Its also 16 Ohms and 106dB/1 Watt and has the benefit of beryllium diaphragms for the midrange driver (so no breakups till about 35KHz, so very smooth mids and highs) and field coils (which makes them faster since the magnetic field around the voice coil sags less when current is applied).

I've heard this speaker many times with our equipment. So I'm not sure what to think of your second paragraph above; perhaps you didn't know about my advocacy of higher efficency speakers.

FWIW, back in the early 1950s the diaphragms of horn midrange drivers were usually constructed of aluminum. In addition, the aluminum itself was often the surround as well (the suspension of the diaphragm). So breakups are pretty common with them and I've no doubt that's why there's a good number of people that don't like horns (breakups cause harshness). At least one of them is following this thread. These days you can have beryllium diaphragms with Kapton surrounds which not only have no breakups in the audio band but are also a lot better behaved with out-of-band material (lower frequencies that make it through the crossover). Both of these result in smoother, more natural sound. I've heard direct comparisons and its pretty dramatic. I don't know if such a thing is available for a Vitavox but from what I've experienced its worth investigation for any vintage horn system.

There are lots of people on this forum who do many wrong things, including matching wrong amps to wrong speakers and defending digital against analog, and not posting videos of their systems

You do realize that posting videos on the Internet is contrary to the idea of 'defending digital against analog', right? FWIW I'm of the opinion that forum rules do not allow me to post videos of my system since I'm a manufacturer. I am curious, what's a 'wrong amp to wrong speaker' in your book (not that I am disagreeing with you; I've maintained exactly that for decades)?

 

[PeterA]

There are lots of people on this forum who do many wrong things, including matching wrong amps to wrong speakers and defending digital against analog, and not posting videos of their systems

And they use the wrong words and worship gurus.

 

[PeterA]

Some records are more live and some studio records have more silent backgrounds but if the listener feels the “black background” in sound I think it will be about noise filtering in ac power or cables. In my experience “black background” is equal to killing micro dynamics.

Most AC filters, many AC cables, many power distributors, most virtual Ground systems (like cad gc3) all give us blacker background.


In my idea For non-expert listeners this is good but expert listeners do not like “black background”

Agreed. It's a coloration.

 

[bonzo75]

FWIW I'm of the opinion that forum rules do not allow me to post videos of my system since I'm a manufacturer.

You can always WhatsApp me happy to post them for you

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Most AC filters, many AC cables, many power distributors, most virtual Ground systems (like cad gc3) all give us blacker background.

In my idea For non-expert listeners this is good but expert listeners do not like “black background”

i think it's a mistake to generalize and get people defensive. i agree that 'treatments' treat. but assigning a general characteristic to most/any/all of these products is not right. might some do that? it's possible.

can you cite even a couple examples of specific treatments in this category that replace a 'correct' ambient background with blackness? remove proper information from a recording?

and it's fine to prefer the performance without these products, but then saying they do this or that is something different.

btw, i agree that a 'black background' literally is not preferred. but the word 'black' or 'blacker' can refer to multiple things. i don't like it's use since it's confusing. and i'm sure i've been guilty of it sometimes.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

There are lots of people on this forum who do many wrong things.....................and not posting videos of their systems

sometimes wrong is right.

 

[hopkins]

I find the 'black background' attribute largely undesirable. It adds an unreal character to music from my system and homogenizes sound. It is antithetical to what I find in the concert hall and I rather not add that characteristic to my listening experience.

Hearing more of the recording - removing "veil" - should not add to the recording or homogenize sound, on the contrary. Perhaps we are talking about different things, because I don't understand what you are referring to.

 

[hopkins]

Some records are more live and some studio records have more silent backgrounds but if the listener feels the “black background” in sound I think it will be about noise filtering in ac power or cables. In my experience “black background” is equal to killing micro dynamics

If you add a piece of equipment that kills micro dynamics it should not be used. You can't conclude anything else from using a faulty piece of equipment.

 

[PeterA]

Hearing more of the recording - removing "veil" - should not add to the recording or homogenize sound, on the contrary. Perhaps we are talking about different things, because I don't understand what you are referring to.

Yes, you are talking about different things. You are describing lowering the system/room noise floor. I understand Tim describing a coloration.

 

[hopkins]

Yes, you are talking about different things. You are describing lowering the system/room noise floor. I understand Tim describing a coloration.

What he describes sounds like something that pushed to the extreme would imply you would not hear music anymore. Complete silence is not what we are after

 

[tima]

Perhaps we are talking about different things, because I don't understand what you are referring to.

Sounds about right.

What he describes sounds like something that pushed to the extreme would imply you would not hear music anymore. Complete silence is not what we are after

That confirms your previous post. I'm not going to debate your misunderstanding of what I said. Look for the phrase in the writings of others who use it; maybe they will be clear for you.

 

[Rexp]

100% agree, we should avoid trying to denigrate other audiophiles

What about digital-only audiophiles, they're fair game, surely?

 

[Rexp]

Came across this very natural sounding vid, anyone agree/disagree?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks! I described something like that earlier. I used to think that only tubes could do that, but as I've learned more about how distortion and feedback actually work (rather than made up stories I maintained all the way through college in my youth) I've found that you can do that with class D as well no worries.

My only personal experience with Class D (apart from subwoofers) is MBL Noble (Class D) versus MBL (Class A) on MBL 101E Mk. IIs. I preferred the Noble as I think I found it a little bit warmer and a touch "smoother."

 

[the sound of Tao]

i think it's a mistake to generalize and get people defensive. i agree that 'treatments' treat. but assigning a general characteristic to most/any/all of these products is not right. might some do that? it's possible.

can you cite even a couple examples of specific treatments in this category that replace a 'correct' ambient background with blackness? remove proper information from a recording?

and it's fine to prefer the performance without these products, but then saying they do this or that is something different.

btw, i agree that a 'black background' literally is not preferred. but the word 'black' or 'blacker' can refer to multiple things. i don't like it's use since it's confusing. and i'm sure i've been guilty of it sometimes.

For sure… it would be good to determine what the inky black background effect is exactly before the agenda starts assigning the cause.

The last time (on reflection mistakenly) I used the black background term was probably over a decade ago when I swapped out stock jumpers on my Maggie 20.7s for something more transparent. On reflection what I was hearing was the removal of a greyness to reveal greater ambience rather than a simple blackness.

In systems where I’ve heard people talk about hearing (?) black backgrounds all I have perceived was where the energy of ambience was clipped making for a for-shortened ambience and a void wrapping around the apparent more localised sounds of instruments as opposed to when the recording was played on a more revealing and transparent setup where ambience was more extended and more complete.

 

[Lagonda]

My only personal experience with Class D (apart from subwoofers) is MBL Noble (Class D) versus MBL (Class A) on MBL 101E Mk. IIs. I preferred the Noble as I think I found it a little bit warmer and a touch "smoother."

MBL is not Class A.

 

[bonzo75]

FWIW, back in the early 1950s the diaphragms of horn midrange drivers were usually constructed of aluminum. In addition, the aluminum itself was often the surround as well (the suspension of the diaphragm). So breakups are pretty common with them and I've no doubt that's why there's a good number of people that don't like horns (breakups cause harshness). At least one of them is following this thread. These days you can have beryllium diaphragms with Kapton surrounds which not only have no breakups in the audio band but are also a lot better behaved with out-of-band material (lower frequencies that make it through the crossover). Both of these result in smoother, more natural sound. I've heard direct comparisons and its pretty dramatic.

FWIW, back in the day Goto was making Beryllium, and then TAD. Today, apart from TAD, you can add Truextent diaphragms to pretty much anything, the hORNs Universum with Radian drivers with Truextent is one I like.

BE is tough to manage, it is a bit more nuanced and see through like an electrostat, but prone to a synthetic sheen unless set up well. I like these drivers, paper, and altec aluminium. Altecs sound great with altec woofers (there are hardly any better woofers for the midbass and lower midrange), and finally it's a balance. Would shifting BE with Aluminium in an Altec make a dramatic diference? Some positive, some negative, at the end, if the one you hear is well balanced, that's the one to go for. There are too many bad 'uns out there.

 

[treitz3]

Do you guys ever listen to music, or just talk about it?

I hate to interrupt the conversation here but....

Tom