Natural Sound

Romy the Cat's take on "Natural Sound", with our own PeterA's thread as a starting point


A friend sent me a link to this video last night. I just finished watching it. I actually found this video a bit easier to follow along than some of his other videos. Perhaps it is the topic that interests me.

Romy is a funny guy, full of sarcasm. He says right near the beginning of the video when discussing "The Absolute Sound" approach: "Hello Michael Fremer. How are you doing?" That is too funny right after his previous video about reviewers. I find Romy's delivery a bit difficult to follow, but the content is very interesting. Within 24 hours of my posting on his website some comments about the MF video, Romy records this new video after reading the beginning of my system thread. He clearly has these thoughts in his mind and is able to articulate and to share them quickly, off the cuff. I find that very impressive.

Romy identifies and describes three approaches which I will try to summarize:

1. The Absolute Sound.
The first part of the video is a condemnation of the industry: the gear, the magazines, the reviewers. He describes this approach as an endless search for and promotion of sonic properties. The goal is to maximize these properties in the presentation. I kept thinking of the audiophile glossary of terms. He does not think this has anything to do with what one hears from live music. These properties are viewed as positives, and the more you can get, the better.

2. Neutrality/naturalness
This approach is viewing these properties as negative, because they are not heard in live music, and rejecting them. The more absent the properties are from the presentation, the better. One is left listening to the music and the emotions will follow. The problem with this approach, as I understand it, is that one is left with a system that may sound beautiful, but is not flexible, so it will allow an emotional connection to come through, but it can not be tailored to maximize different emotions for different music and performances. It is a passive approach.

3. Expressivity (His 3rd Way)
This third approach allows the listener to shape his own experience to maximize emotional involvement and enjoyment. I think Romy likes to experiment, play, and tinker. He is always searching and thinking for new ways. He is obsessed in a good way. Others have described their obsessions as a sickness. I get that and I respect it. I particularly appreciate that Romy thinks deeply about this, shares his approach and thinking, and actually experiments trying to improve his experience. This is a deep approach to the hobby.

Now, I think a lot of us think about the hobby and want to improve our systems. So in that sense, perhaps we all follow a bit of all three approaches. I disagree with Romy somewhat because people in all three approaches seem to want to shape or tailor their listening experience. This is done in the first two approaches through the careful selection of gear, and the setting up of the room and system, and finally by the music and recording choices they make. I am talking about active hobbyists. Certainly some audiophiles go and buy what they read about and have someone else set it up for them, and then they are satisfied and listen, not changing, exploring, or experimenting. That is a fine approach too.

Romy reminds me of Carlos269 here. Each takes a more active role in wanting to shape the presentation after the gear has been bought. Their approach is in choosing the gear for its flexibility. They seem to enjoy working to create a presentation that maximizes the emotion they are trying to get when listening. Their approach is more as an active participant. My approach is to try to closely resemble the listening experience I have when listening to live music. I do this by choosing specific gear and setting it up in a particular way.

What I find refreshing about Romy is his insatiable curiosity, and his willingness to share with anyone interested in listening. His approach is a bit different, both the videos, and in his listening room. I happen to think the hobby benefits from thinkers like him.
 
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Do you think of yourself as 'running the site'?
In most senses yes, and in one sense no; but certainly more yes than no.

Neither Steve nor I has anything to do with moderation or suspensions or discipline. But moderation is only one aspect of running the site.

I think of Julian as running the site from an IT administration and technology point of view.

Ultimately Steve and I are responsible for the site.
 
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Do you see my comment under the video? I do not see it.

You posted a screenshot of your comment. It got deleted. You must’ve watched some of the video to make your comment because you referenced a comment in the video.

I’m curious to know if you watched the whole video and what your thoughts are about it. The rest of it is a distraction.
 
I’m curious to know if you watched the whole video
Yes, I did.
what your thoughts are about it.

1) The video should've been five or ten minutes long instead of 35 minutes. Recording a video is easier for Roman than typing on a computer, as he admits. But it seems inconsiderate and lazy to visit upon his viewers his rambling delivery, rather than typing out a coherent, carefully-written essay and posting it on-line.

It is annoying to me that he doesn't bother to edit out of his video his long pauses and verbal repetitions and self-distractions and dramatic cigar draws.

2) He is confusing The Absolute Sound's concept of the absolute sound (evaluating our stereos against the reference of live, unamplified acoustic music) with what we here on WBF call sonic glossary audiophile attributes. (Sonic glossary audiophile attributes include black background, pinpoint imaging, low noise floor, bass slam, detail and extension at the frequency extremes. I sometimes refer to this type of sound as "typical contemporary high-end dealer sound.")

3) Roman's definition of naturality sound as the absence of negative experiences (as he says kind of the inverse of his (incorrect) definition of the absolute sound) does not make much sense to me.

4) The "third way" is Vladimir Lamm's notion of maximizing the amplitude of the musical content. In Roman's thinking the absolute sound is about creating sonic glossary audiophile attributes, whereas natural sound is about consciously avoiding sonic glossary audiophile attributes. The third way is to maximize the expressive intent of the music.

If all Roman means by this third way is maximizing emotional engagement, I agree with it. If he means anything else, the third way doesn't have much meaning.

5) Occasionally, Roman backs into the notion of emotional engagement. This I agree with, as I think the ultimate objective of the hobby is to maximize emotional engagement with the music we love.

6) I liked his illustration of "sonic coloration" by describing how the warm hues of the light of sunset reflecting on the face make the face look warmer and rosier, whereas the cool tint of a cold winter day makes the face look pale or grey.

7) He describes the sound of your system, particularly the midbass, as "beautiful" and "exaggerated aesthetics," but not "naturality." Here he contradicts himself, because earlier in the video he used your system as an example of natural sound (his "second way"). Later in the video he describes the sound of your system as beautiful but not natural.

8) The analogy to cheating on one's wife was crude and unnecessary.

9) It is interesting that Roman's philosophy is at odds with David's philosophy of "natural sound" as realized by Lamm ML2 + Vitavox CN-191.

10) I am interpolating a little bit here, but I suspect that Roman does not acknowledge the several different and equally valid objectives of high-end audio that I have banged on about frequently here on WBF. I also suspect that he mistakes his subjective preferences for objective reality. (For example if focusing on sonic glossary audiophile attributes (the "first way," which Roman mis-labels as the absolute sound) maximizes emotional engagement for a particular audiophile then God bless, and that is not objectively wrong for that audiophile.)

11) I agree with you that with his "third way" --"expressivity" -- actively contouring the sound -- Roman seems to be advocating for something like Carlos' broad active manipulation of frequency and other sonic characteristics. As Roman says "shape sound that you want."

12) Roman's philosophy of "expressivity" boils down to him saying that he embraces objective number three of my topology of audiophile objectives: "3) Create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile."
 
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1. The Absolute Sound.
The first part of the video is a condemnation of the industry: the gear, the magazines, the reviewers. He describes this approach as an endless search for and promotion of sonic properties. The goal is to maximize these properties in the presentation. I kept thinking of the audiophile glossary of terms. He does not think this has anything to do with what one hears from live music. These properties are viewed as positives, and the more you can get, the better.

I agree with Romy on some of this in your item 1. But I don't condemn the industry or the audio media in general.

Much of the audiophile vocabulary is properties or characteristics. These are ordained and form a box into which most sonic descriptions are fitted and constrained. I agree with the assessment that most reviewers (and users who repeat after them) think it is good to maximize these properties. But I disagree with much of that. I'll pick an example which we've hashed over repeatedly: black backgrounds. Reviewer MF extols the characteristic, writing about "velvety black backgrounds" and transients that "pop like fireworks against a night sky". I find such is unnatural, a coloration, an artificiality, not to be promoted. Here is another: Does your stereo offer "illumination of the furthest corners of the soundstage?" To me whatever the perspective comes from the recording, not as an homogenized property of a system. Not all properties that reviewers use (make up with flowery language) are positives.

I disagree with Romy that all properties don't have anything to do with the sound of live music. Live music lays out certain characteristics of the sound desired by the composer in the score. Primary being tonality, timing (beats per measure) and dynamics. Those terms are useful to sonic descriptions of reproduced music. Characteristics of sonic expression and tempo such as Andante, Allegro and Largo are also given as directions in a scoremand can be useful describing reproduction.

Wrt 'expressivity', I'd prefer the music put emotional involvement upon me rather than attempting to generate it through equipment choices.

Good job parsing RomySpeak.
 
As Ever … The Usual Pair Of Suspects :

“Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”

Sir Walter Scott, 1808 .
 
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7) He describes the sound of your system, particularly the midbass, as "beautiful" and "exaggerated aesthetics," but not "naturality." Here he contradicts himself, because earlier in the video he used your system as an example of natural sound (his "second way"). Later in the video he describes the sound of your system as beautiful but not natural.
I watched the video and did not find a contradiction. He was referring to Peter's view of his own system as natural, and simply stated that he had no problem with Peter's description of his own preferences.
 
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I disagree with Romy that all properties don't have anything to do with the sound of live music. Live music lays out certain characteristics of the sound desired by the composer in the score. Primary being tonality, timing (beats per measure) and dynamics. Those terms are useful to sonic descriptions of reproduced music. Characteristics of sonic expression and tempo such as Andante, Allegro and Largo are also given as directions in a scoremand can be useful describing reproduction.

His main point is that sound reproduction creates an artificial representation. Obviously, you can always find correlation with live sound, because it is "sound reproduction"...
 
Yes, I learned a great deal that day meeting Romy and listening to his system with David. They surely are not the usual suspects.
Roman could be a mature Keyser Soze with that cigar ! ;)
 
Wrt 'expressivity', I'd prefer the music put emotional involvement upon me rather than attempting to generate it through equipment choices.

If music and performance are full of emotion and expressiveness then the gear doesn’t need add to expression or even need to get upset.

When people describe a piece of gear as being emotional… suggest therapy!

I’d think that gear can be resolving or have realism and it may possibly have to do with a system being cohesive and rendering the whole and not losing the sum of a performance in a sea of it’s parts… but the emotion is in the content not in the carrier.
 
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I watched the video and did not find a contradiction. He was referring to Peter's view of his own system as natural, and simply stated that he had no problem with Peter's description of his own preferences.

That seems whitewashing of what Romy actually said. After the 14 minute mark he gets into how Natural Sound is just like Absolute Sound a list of properties, but now as, quote, "rejection filter". Then he goes on to say that Natural Sound is about being in the, quote, "fetal position, cross your hands and say 'don't hurt me' " (just before the 16 min mark).

Pretty mean, don't you think? You may or may not agree with this but please let's not pretend that Romy has nice things to say about anything than his Third Way.
 
That seems whitewashing of what Romy actually said. After the 14 minute mark he gets into how Natural Sound is just like Absolute Sound a list of properties, but now as, quote, "rejection filter". Then he goes on to say that Natural Sound is about being in the, quote, "fetal position, cross your hands and say 'don't hurt me' " (just before the 16 min mark).

Pretty mean, don't you think? You may or may not agree with this but please let's not pretend that Romy has nice things to say about anything than his Third Way.

I'm not! Moreover I think he was commenting on a specific aspects of Peter's equipment when mentioning the term "beautiful".

Anyway, there are contradictions in what he says. Let's take his first comment on "absolute sound". He explains how the objectives put forward have nothing to do with music, yet he also states that sound reproduction is an "artificial" construct. So yes, you can't say a live event has a black background (duh...) but at the same time, a "black background" (meant as a low "noise floor") can be a desireable property - not injecting more noise in the reproduction is obviously a good thing. In other words, I don't want a live club recording sound like a studio recording! I just want my system to provide what's in the recording, not mask it.

In a way, his video is representative of many discussions here. It seems that anything can be twisted and turned into a negative.

Were I to mention "resolution", or even worse, "detail", someone will associate that to "clinical" (negative), and start waxing lyrical about a more holistic listening experience. I'd rather have the "holistic" experience with the detail, than without it, if I can... If the holistic experience is not there, it's not because there is detail, it is because other attributes are missing.

When did "pinpoint imaging" all the sudden become a bad thing?

Even a topic like acoustic treatment can become a loaded topic.

Etc, etc...
 
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I'm not! Moreover I think he was commenting on a specific aspects of Peter's equipment when mentioning the term "beautiful".

Anyway, there are contradictions in what he says. Let's take his first comment on "absolute sound". He explains how the objectives put forward have nothing to do with music, yet he also states that sound reproduction is an "artificial" construct. So yes, you can't say a live event has a black background (duh...) but at the same time, a "black background" (meant as a low "noise floor") can be a desireable property - not injecting more noise in the reproduction is obviously a good thing. In other words, I don't want a live club recording sound like a studio recording! I just want my system to provide what's in the recording, not mask it.

In a way, his video is representative of many discussions here. It seems that anything can be twisted and turned into a negative.

Were I to mention "resolution", or even worse, "detail", someone will associate that to "clinical" (negative), and start waxing lyrical about a more holistic listening experience. I'd rather have the "holistic" experience with the detail, than without it, if I can... If the holistic experience is not there, it's not because there is detail, it is because other attributes are missing.

When did "pinpoint imaging" all the sudden become a bad thing?

Even a topic like acoustic treatment can become a loaded topic.

Etc, etc...

I don't understand his thrashing of absolute sound. He does it by building up a strawman and then knocking it down. What's wrong with wanting the best dynamics, the best detail etc f they are found in live music as well. Yes, I want everything on the list of "properties" at a maximum -- yet as it is found in live music, as maximum fidelity to it, not as an exaggeration *). If some make absolute sound into an exaggeration that's that, but I don't see how that's inherent in the idea itself. That Romy makes it seem so doesn't mean that it is so.

________________________

*) as sounds that, quote, "can remove the filings from your teeth" (video after the 15 minute mark)
 
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2) He is confusing The Absolute Sound's concept of the absolute sound (evaluating our stereos against the reference of live, unamplified acoustic music) with what we here on WBF call sonic glossary audiophile attributes. (Sonic glossary audiophile attributes include black background, pinpoint imaging, low noise floor, bass slam, detail and extension at the frequency extremes. I sometimes refer to this type of sound as "typical contemporary high-end dealer sound.")

Agreed.
 
I think a person rejecting sonic attributes sitting in a corner in the fetal position wanting no one to hurt him is a very strange interpretation of what I am trying to achieve with my system and set up and how I enjoy the listening experience in my room.
I agree.

Among several problems with Roman's thinking at least one problem is fundamental:

-- He is changing for no good reason the well-understood concept of "the absolute sound" to mean something totally different and arguably opposite (sonic glossary audiophile attributes sound).

-- He is changing for no good reason David's concept of "natural sound" to mean something that doesn't make much sense (sound that eliminates negative experiences). If anything, Roman's concept here is maybe better understood as my Objective 3) "create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile." This at least is consonant with his notion of eliminating negative sonic experiences, meaning eliminating irritating or fatiguing sound according to one's personal, subjective preferences.
 
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.-- He is changing for no good reason David's concept of "natural sound" to mean something that doesn't make much sense (sound that eliminates negative experiences).

Actually, Romy has a point. If you look at Peter's list of bullet points in post #5 on the first page of this thread, it is striking how many times you find the word "no" (there is also one "not" and one "absent").
 
When did "pinpoint imaging" all the sudden become a bad thing?

We've been talking about how the stereo experience is different from the concert hall experience for some time now, so not so much "all the sudden". There are several threads that go into some depth on this.

Thread topics:


and particularly, this one, but don't get disuaded by the initial discussion on PRAT:


You can experience pinpoint imaging -- meaning the psycho-acoustic idealization of precise location of different sound sources relative to one another and sometimes cashed out as outlined performer images -- you can experience this during the stereo experience, although its not a given. In the concert hall with your eyes closed, not so much. Try it.

Relative to the live experience pinpoint imaging in the stereo room is an artificiality. Some people embrace these types of psycho-acoustic 'virtues' of the stereo experience. Within the context of natural sound it is de-emphasized as something sought after or as a requirement when putting a system together in a room.
 

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