Natural Sound

I went to a wonderful performance the other night of Beethoven's String Trios. The musicians performed for an audience of about one hundred people in a fairly large room with a sprung floor, built in 1807 by the famous builder, Samual McIntire. The acoustics are excellent. The music and performance were sublime. As live acoustic music is my reference, I paid particular attention to a few aspects of the presentation.

The first thing that struck me was the sheer energy coming off of the instruments and how resonant the cello was. The floor vibrated with that energy and it was strongly felt as we sat just 15-20 feet from the musicians. The second thing I noticed was that the violin was not very extended, not shrill, or thin, but instead, it had a very rich, colorful tone. The third thing I noticed, and this might be most controversial, was the lack of separation of the instruments.

We have had many discussions about how reproduced music falls short of the live performance. I generally think of the differences in dynamics and scale and power, but this small ensemble illustrated for me that many of the systems I hear just don't portray the energy and tone accurately. In comparison, they sound thin and flat. I suppose that is not so surprising and the more exposure one has to live music, the clearer these deficiencies become. What did surprise me was the lack of an audiophile attribute that I increasingly see mentioned in reviews and listener reports: "separation of instruments".

At the risk of raising yet another controversial observation, I want to share my thoughts about the "separation of instruments". I consider this attribute to be similar to the two audiophile attributes of black backgrounds and pinpoint images. Over the years I have read in reviews how some particular components have the uncanny ability to increase the separation of the instruments in the soundstage. Individual instruments are clearly delineated, both tonally and spatially in the presentation. Sometimes the description takes it even further to describe the instruments as though they are occupying their own space and surrounded by air. In this sense, they are described as "isolated". This effect is described as a positive characteristic. I think I have read this when describing both the playback of large scale orchestral pieces as well as small scale chamber performances.

A couple of weeks ago I attended a classical concert of Wagner, Debussy and Elgar. Two nights ago I heard these Beethoven String Trios. At neither performance did I hear black backgrounds, pinpoint images, or separation of instruments. I did see separate musicians playing their instruments, but the sound, the energy from those instruments immediately expanded out and around to fill the hall's space. The individual sounds from the instruments was intertwined and overlapped. There was a wholeness to the sound, not pieces of sound. There was no sense of space between the musicians and their instruments, not in the orchestra or in the trio. There was just the location of the origin of the sound next to or behind other locations of the origins of the other sounds, and they were all mixing to create the gestalt of the experience.

We have discussed these specific terms or expressions before, and I understand why they are used when describing some components and system presentations. I do not doubt that people hear these attributes when listening to some audio systems and when comparing some components. I have heard them too. I suppose they are meaningful as descriptors to convey what people hear when describing reproduced sound. However, I just do not hear these effects when listening to live music. This system thread is about assembling and setting up a system in a room that reminds me of what I experience when attending a live performance. I do not hear black backgrounds, pinpoint imaging, or a separation of instruments when listening to my system. The absence of these helps to create what I refer to as natural sound from an audio system. Tonight it will be an organ recital in my neighborhood church built in 1714.

IMG_8482 copy.JPG

IMG_8535.JPG

IMG_8540.JPG
 
Last edited:
Thank you for this great report, and for your comparative analysis of live music versus reproduced music on our stereos. Regarding the comparative analysis I agree with everything you wrote.
 
Thank you for this great report, and for your comparative analysis of live music versus reproduced music on our stereos. Regarding the comparative analysis I agree with everything you wrote.

Thank you Ron. I am simply describing what I hear from my system and the few others that I have heard, certainly not all of "our systems". I am glad to learn that you can relate to what I wrote regarding these particular effects. I am also describing what I experience when I listen to live music. Others hear and focus on different things. The post may start a nice conversation with different viewpoints, I do not know. Because the post is so specific to my own experience, and IMO relates to strongly to natural sound, I thought I would post the essay here rather than in a new thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ron Resnick
Very well stated Peter! Your description of live music as contrasted with reproduced music in our homes matches my experience exactly. The issue of pinpoint imaging is one that really strikes home for me. I use horn speakers with open baffle woofers, and imaging and soundstage are very different with OB speakers. OB gives a large diffuse soundstage which may not be so impressive to many home-bound audiophiles but it happens to sound remarkably similar to what I hear with live music in small to medium size venues.

Of course, the usual caveats apply about how not all recordings sound this way, recording techniques differ, large rooms vs small rooms, etc.
 
Thank you Ron. I am simply describing what I hear from my system and the few others that I have heard, certainly not all of "our systems". I am glad to learn that you can relate to what I wrote regarding these particular effects. I am also describing what I experience when I listen to live music. Others hear and focus on different things. The post may start a nice conversation with different viewpoints, I do not know. Because the post is so specific to my own experience, and IMO relates to strongly to natural sound, I thought I would post the essay here rather than in a new thread.
You've put together a system with a great deal of attention and care. Imagine listening to the same system but with an entry level turntable. Have you tried? What do you expect the diffetence would be?
 
You've put together a system with a great deal of attention and care. Imagine listening to the same system but with an entry level turntable. Have you tried? What do you expect the diffetence would be?

Indeed, I have tried and not only an entry level turntable, but a vintage turntable that now costs only $350 on Ebay. I still have my Denon DP45F from college. I just listened to it a few months ago. It sounded excellent. It has a very similar character and natural sound, just not the authority or resolution, but I was pleasantly surprised. It was with the Lamm L1 preamp and not the LL1. This allowed the extra space on the top shelf. I used both the original Denon 103 cartridge (you can see it on the top shelf) and I tried it with an extra Ortofon SL-15 so both tables had the same cartridge but not arm. Here is a photo:



IMG_8149.JPG
 
You've put together a system with a great deal of attention and care. Imagine listening to the same system but with an entry level turntable. Have you tried? What do you expect the diffetence would be?
He has the entry level American Sound ! ;)
 
He has the entry level American Sound ! ;)

Good one Milan! Well, not if you include the extremely rare original AS1000 from the 1970s. I had the one Vladimir Lamm was using in my system for about a month. That table performs somewhere between the Micro Seiki SX8000 II and the AS2000.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lagonda
Indeed, I have tried and not only an entry level turntable, but a vintage turntable that now costs only $350 on Ebay. I still have my Denon DP45F from college. I just listened to it a few months ago. It sounded excellent. It has a very similar character and natural sound, just not the authority or resolution, but I was pleasantly surprised. It was with the Lamm L1 preamp and not the LL1. This allowed the extra space on the top shelf. I used both the original Denon 103 cartridge (you can see it on the top shelf) and I tried it with an extra Ortofon SL-15 so both tables had the same cartridge but not arm. Here is a photo:



View attachment 147556
What you describe as "better resolution" could be described by someone else as "blacker background". Simple as that.
 
What you describe as "better resolution" could be described by someone else as "blacker background". Simple as that.
Not really, a really good turntable gives you less black background and more resolution between instruments and performers, greater dynamics and just more "realness " or Natural Sound TM. When it is on the recording of course. :)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cdka and PeterA
Not really, a really good turntable gives you less black background and more resolution between instruments and performers, greater dynamics and just more "realness " or Natural Sound TM. When it is on the recording of course. :)
If you say so, but it seems to me just like play on words. Whatever...as long as we like the end results.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tangram
I went to a wonderful performance the other night of Beethoven's String Trios. The musicians performed for an audience of about one hundred people in a fairly large room with a sprung floor, built in 1807 by the famous builder, Samual McIntire. The acoustics are excellent. The music and performance were sublime. As live acoustic music is my reference, I paid particular attention to a few aspects of the presentation.

The first thing that struck me was the sheer energy coming off of the instruments and how resonant the cello was. The floor vibrated with that energy and it was strongly felt as we sat just 15-20 feet from the musicians. The second thing I noticed was that the violin was not very extended, not shrill, or thin, but instead, it had a very rich, colorful tone. The third thing I noticed, and this might be most controversial, was the lack of separation of the instruments.

We have had many discussions about how reproduced music falls short of the live performance. I generally think of the differences in dynamics and scale and power, but this small ensemble illustrated for me that many of the systems I hear just don't portray the energy and tone accurately. In comparison, they sound thin and flat. I suppose that is not so surprising and the more exposure one has to live music, the clearer these deficiencies become. What did surprise me was the lack of an audiophile attribute that I increasingly see mentioned in reviews and listener reports: "separation of instruments".

At the risk of raising yet another controversial observation, I want to share my thoughts about the "separation of instruments". I consider this attribute to be similar to the two audiophile attributes of black backgrounds and pinpoint images. Over the years I have read in reviews how some particular components have the uncanny ability to increase the separation of the instruments in the soundstage. Individual instruments are clearly delineated, both tonally and spatially in the presentation. Sometimes the description takes it even further to describe the instruments as though they are occupying their own space and surrounded by air. In this sense, they are describes as "isolated". This effect is described as a positive characteristic. I think I have read this when describing both the playback of large scale orchestral pieces as well as small scale chamber performances.

A couple of weeks ago I attended a classical concert of Wagner, Debussy and Elgar. Two nights ago I heard these Beethoven String Trios. At neither performance did I hear black backgrounds, pinpoint images, or separation of instruments. I did see separate musicians playing their instruments, but the sound, the energy from those instruments immediately expanded out and around to fill the hall's space. The individual sounds from the instruments was intertwined and overlapped. There was a wholeness to the sound, not pieces of sound. There was no sense of space between the musicians and their instruments, not in the orchestra or in the trio. There was just the location of the origin of the sound next to or behind other locations of the origins of the other sounds, and they were all mixing to create the gestalt of the experience.

We have discussed these specific terms or expressions before, and I understand why they are used when describing some components and system presentations. I do not doubt that people hear these attributes when listening to some audio systems and when comparing some components. I have heard them too. I suppose they are meaningful as descriptors to convey what people hear when describing reproduced sound. However, I just do not hear these effects when listening to live music. This system thread is about assembling and setting up a system in a room that reminds me of what I experience when attending a live performance. I do not hear black backgrounds, pinpoint imaging, or a separation of instruments when listening to my system. The absence of these helps to create what I refer to as natural sound from an audio system. Tonight it will be an organ recital in my neighborhood church built in 1714.

View attachment 147547

View attachment 147548

View attachment 147549
I don't hear "black backgrounds" or ""pinpoint" imaging/separation of individual instruments in live performances either, and this is just as true for big band and small combo jazz as it is for classical music. These attributes have never been important criteria for me when selecting audio gear. Yet I have otherwise knowledgeable audiophile colleagues who value this kind of (unnatural in my view) type of imaging/separation.
 
If you say so, but it seems to me just like play on words. Whatever...as long as we like the end results.
You do realize that with this one comment you’ve described 50% of the posts on WBF? If there was contest for host of the next Semantics Olympics, WBF would be a strong contender.
 
What you describe as "better resolution" could be described by someone else as "blacker background". Simple as that.

Well, I mean resolution in the sense that one hears more information from the recording getting presented at the listening seat, and qualities like energy, space, ambiance, nuance, dynamics, tone are more highly resolved or articulated. I am all for a low noise floor allowing more information to be presented to the listener. When listening to live music, I don't hear black backgrounds or think of a noise floor. I observe sound and energy and how it behaves in the space. Balance between the sounds and in the space is also important.

If you mean blacker background as lower noise floor, I might agree with you in terms of semantics. If you mean blacker background as an absence of something up on stage, in, around, and between the musicians, I would disagree and not really know what you mean, as that is not something I experience listening to live music.

I do hear blacker backgrounds from some systems when hearing familiar recordings. I can relate when discussing reproduced music, and I consider that an artifact somewhere in the reproduction chain. It is an absence or void and a lack of resolution. Here, I observe less hall ambiance, less sense of space or energy hanging in the air, more separation or nothingness between the instruments. I find that kind of a black background to be artificial and distinctly not natural sounding.
 
Well, I mean resolution in the sense that one hears more information from the recording getting presented at the listening seat, and qualities like energy, space, ambiance, nuance, dynamics, tone are more highly resolved or articulated. I am all for a low noise floor allowing more information to be presented to the listener. When listening to live music, I don't hear black backgrounds or think of a noise floor. I observe sound and energy and how it behaves in the space. Balance between the sounds and in the space is also important.

If you mean blacker background as lower noise floor, I might agree with you in terms of semantics. If you mean blacker background as an absence of something up on stage, in, around, and between the musicians, I would disagree and not really know what you mean, as that is not something I experience listening to live music.

I do hear blacker backgrounds from some systems when hearing familiar recordings. I can relate when discussing reproduced music, and I consider that an artifact somewhere in the reproduction chain. It is an absence or void and a lack of resolution. Here, I observe less hall ambiance, less sense of space or energy hanging in the air, more separation or nothingness between the instruments. I find that kind of a black background to be artificial and distinctly not natural sounding.
You are confusing the recording and how the system reproduces it.

What type of recording you listen to is your choice. I can't say I have the same approach. I don't choose to listen to recordings because they sound a certain way - I choose to listen to musicians I appreciate, and take the recording as it is (though sometimes, of course, I will look for better recordings of something I really like). Whether recordings sound "natural" or not is not a criteria - I simply try to make the most of whatever it is I choose to play. In fact, it is part of the fun to "hear" the specific sound of each album. Most of what I listen to are studio recordings anyway and they all sound different.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: microstrip
You are confusing the recording and how the system reproduces it.

What type of recording you listen to is your choice. I can't say I have the same approach. I don't choose to listen to recordings because they sound a certain way - I choose to listen to musicians I appreciate, and take the recording as it is (though sometimes, of course, I will look for better recordings of something I really like). Whether recordings sound "natural" or not is not a criteria - I simply try to make the most of whatever it is I choose to play. In fact, it is part of the fun to "hear" the specific sound of each album. Most of what I listen to are studio recordings anyway and they all sound different.

With your blacker backgrounds, do you also hear increased separation between instruments?
 
With your blacker backgrounds, do you also hear increased separation between instruments?
Probably not - maybe others can share their opinions - I guess you would have to start with a pretty "cluttered" sound to hear more seperation. Instruments sounding "fuller", most certainly. It's hard to give a very precise and general answer.

The term (black background), as has been discussed before, is not ideal as it does lead to these misunderstandings. People probably use a variety of terms to refer to the same idea. Nobody wants to have a system which is "veiled", for example. But then, if you speak of clarity, you can give the impression of a sterile/clinical system.

In his thread, Thundersnow speaks of his appreciation for the organic quality of his latest configuration, with more "3D space" - is that a good thing, a bad thing, in your opinion?

Post in thread 'Introducing My System' https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/introducing-my-system.33777/post-1038968
 
I do wonder at times, @PeterA, do you only listen to recordings that are intended to sound like you're in the audience at a live performance?

The relation of recorded music to a live performance is only valid if you use a simple 2-mic recording placed among the concert-goers, and unless you were actually there and sitting near those mics, you really have no point of reference. And if the recording is anything other than a simple 2-mic recording, then the intent of the person making the recording is something other than to make it sound just like a live performance and how do you possibly know and understand this intent? What about studio recordings? Avoid entirely?

And how is recorded music supposed to equal the energy and dynamics of a live show given every recording is dynamically compressed? Have you ever heard uncompressed recordings on your system? I have and it's an entirely different experience.

It seems to me that expecting every recording to sound live is just setting yourself up for disappointment and/or drastically limiting the recordings you enjoy. Why not simply enjoy the recording for what it is? If your system can uniquely present different recordings for what they are, presenting the intent and vision of the recording engineer with the least editorializing possible, isn't that enough? Or do you want to your system to alter the recording in such a way that makes it sound closer to your unique experiences of live music?

I think if you really want music that sounds live you're going to have to get into the recording business and do it yourself. Such recordings would require a very high-end, large-scale system capable of portraying the dynamics and energy of a live concert, but would go a long ways toward a playback system that sounds live. I think we often focus far too much on the system rather than the recording, wishing for the recording to be something it just isn't.
 
I went to a wonderful performance the other night of Beethoven's String Trios. The musicians performed for an audience of about one hundred people in a fairly large room with a sprung floor, built in 1807 by the famous builder, Samual McIntire. The acoustics are excellent. The music and performance were sublime. As live acoustic music is my reference, I paid particular attention to a few aspects of the presentation.

The first thing that struck me was the sheer energy coming off of the instruments and how resonant the cello was. The floor vibrated with that energy and it was strongly felt as we sat just 15-20 feet from the musicians. The second thing I noticed was that the violin was not very extended, not shrill, or thin, but instead, it had a very rich, colorful tone. The third thing I noticed, and this might be most controversial, was the lack of separation of the instruments.

We have had many discussions about how reproduced music falls short of the live performance. I generally think of the differences in dynamics and scale and power, but this small ensemble illustrated for me that many of the systems I hear just don't portray the energy and tone accurately. In comparison, they sound thin and flat. I suppose that is not so surprising and the more exposure one has to live music, the clearer these deficiencies become. What did surprise me was the lack of an audiophile attribute that I increasingly see mentioned in reviews and listener reports: "separation of instruments".

At the risk of raising yet another controversial observation, I want to share my thoughts about the "separation of instruments". I consider this attribute to be similar to the two audiophile attributes of black backgrounds and pinpoint images. Over the years I have read in reviews how some particular components have the uncanny ability to increase the separation of the instruments in the soundstage. Individual instruments are clearly delineated, both tonally and spatially in the presentation. Sometimes the description takes it even further to describe the instruments as though they are occupying their own space and surrounded by air. In this sense, they are describes as "isolated". This effect is described as a positive characteristic. I think I have read this when describing both the playback of large scale orchestral pieces as well as small scale chamber performances.

A couple of weeks ago I attended a classical concert of Wagner, Debussy and Elgar. Two nights ago I heard these Beethoven String Trios. At neither performance did I hear black backgrounds, pinpoint images, or separation of instruments. I did see separate musicians playing their instruments, but the sound, the energy from those instruments immediately expanded out and around to fill the hall's space. The individual sounds from the instruments was intertwined and overlapped. There was a wholeness to the sound, not pieces of sound. There was no sense of space between the musicians and their instruments, not in the orchestra or in the trio. There was just the location of the origin of the sound next to or behind other locations of the origins of the other sounds, and they were all mixing to create the gestalt of the experience.

We have discussed these specific terms or expressions before, and I understand why they are used when describing some components and system presentations. I do not doubt that people hear these attributes when listening to some audio systems and when comparing some components. I have heard them too. I suppose they are meaningful as descriptors to convey what people hear when describing reproduced sound. However, I just do not hear these effects when listening to live music. This system thread is about assembling and setting up a system in a room that reminds me of what I experience when attending a live performance. I do not hear black backgrounds, pinpoint imaging, or a separation of instruments when listening to my system. The absence of these helps to create what I refer to as natural sound from an audio system. Tonight it will be an organ recital in my neighborhood church built in 1714.

View attachment 147547

View attachment 147548

View attachment 147549
How close did you sit to the performers? Please remember that recordings are made with microphones placed much closer to the performers than the audience usually sits. So, unless you sit very close some degree of blurring in purely auditory terms is expected…your vision helps your brain compensate.

This means a recording should show better image separation and clear auditory space between performers…by design. As you have no visuals, the recording is made to make a mental image for you.

If a stereo system doesn’t provide that separation on recordings where it should be obvious then there is something not quite right with that system. Again, pinpoint doesn’t literally mean a tiny image, it means very precisely placed images.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rexp and Argonaut
(...) The relation of recorded music to a live performance is only valid if you use a simple 2-mic recording placed among the concert-goers, and unless you were actually there and sitting near those mics, you really have no point of reference. And if the recording is anything other than a simple 2-mic recording, then the intent of the person making the recording is something other than to make it sound just like a live performance and how do you possibly know and understand this intent? What about studio recordings? Avoid entirely? (...)

Even a simple 2-mic AB sounds completely different from a 2-mic XY.
There are night and day differences between microphones.

(...) It seems to me that expecting every recording to sound live is just setting yourself up for disappointment and/or drastically limiting the recordings you enjoy.

Surely.

Why not simply enjoy the recording for what it is? If your system can uniquely present different recordings for what they are, presenting the intent and vision of the recording engineer with the least editorializing possible, isn't that enough?

It is my my current preference - it was not so every time.

Or do you want to your system to alter the recording in such a way that makes it sound closer to your unique experiences of live music?

Good question. IMO no system can do it.

I think if you really want music that sounds live you're going to have to get into the recording business and do it yourself. Such recordings would require a very high-end, large-scale system capable of portraying the dynamics and energy of a live concert, but would go a long ways toward a playback system that sounds live. I think we often focus far too much on the system rather than the recording, wishing for the recording to be something it just isn't.

The reality is that people do not want the sound of live music so much. Otherwise they would listen to binaural audio or multichannel, much closer to live sound than stereo audio.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Argonaut

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing