Natural Sound

[tima]

Yes, he did say that. But he said more too. My interpretation is that the platter pad that came with the turntable was detrimental and he wrote the plinth was not good so if anyone has heard the turntable in stock form, he wouldn’t know what the turntable was capable of sounding like.

Agreed.

 

[morricab]

I am not saying it is a bad TT, my mother owned the top model in the mid nineties, but as good as it gets, no way as good as the best. My Nakamichi Dragon CT sounded better and it was really not that good either.

Technics was not using the best motor technology back in their classic era products like the SP10 series. Those used iron cored motors that had torque ripple and they also didn’t have the most advanced control logic at the time either. The new top model from Technics is finally using a motor that is similar to a classic Kenwood L-07 from the late 70s, which is still SOTA today.
Your Dragon CT at least used a coreless/slotless motor but needed a heavier platter, plinth and better control logic to really shine.

 

[morricab]

Oh I forget Rex’s STST Motus II which is a suspended low torque DD is quite good, nice tone and flow. The suspension can sometimes cause a slight hump in mid bass like some Garrards, but in the EU is a good value relatively lower priced table.

Brinkmann and Primary Control DDs are also very good sounding modern examples.

 

[morricab]

i think many turntables can sound good, but that's not the whole story. until you hear another 'better' turntable side by side with better flow. at one point i had the Dobbins Technics SP-10 Mk2 and also the Dobbins SP-10 Mk3, and the Dobbins the Beat and the NVS all together plus the Dobbins Garrard 301.

the Beat and the NVS were another level beyond the two Technics in terms of flow. and this was an early NVS, not my later build one. and those SP-10's were objectively very very good. i know there are Richard Krebs motors for the SP-10 that are said to be 'better', but never had the chance to compare one to anything else.

so liking a turntable and it having good performance is a different thing than how it 'flows' in the larger scheme of things.....especially for DD turntables.

the new Technics SP-10 is very very good and i'm not knocking it. i've not heard one other than at a show. and not heard one with an exotic plinth either. but unless it's directly compared to higher level turntables it's hard to assume anything. i did hear the SAT XD1 at Axpona last year which uses the SP-10 as a build component and heavily modifies it. that one sounded really good in the system i heard it in. fantastic.

The motor was a huge limitation for the SP10s. It was the wrong design for what a DD needs. Huge torque, despite what many think, is not required…low/no torque ripple is vitally important. I am not at all surprised you found the more modern DD tables to be better because of this reason alone.

 

[bonzo75]

Brinkmann and Primary Control DDs are also very good sounding modern examples.

In Brinkmann I only like the balance, not the other models.

I don't have enought exposure to PC. the field coil arm seemed excellent at Mike's, I wasn't impressed with the non-FC arms. I must say all DDs look visually nice to me because of small footprint

 

[bonzo75]

The motor was a huge limitation for the SP10s. It was the wrong design for what a DD needs. Huge torque, despite what many think, is not required…low/no torque ripple is vitally important. I am not at all surprised you found the more modern DD tables to be better because of this reason alone.

STST Motus II is also low torque. Technics is the most digital of the DDs. Like Lagonda I am surprised Ralph can't hear that.

 

[microstrip]

The motor was a huge limitation for the SP10s. It was the wrong design for what a DD needs. Huge torque, despite what many think, is not required…low/no torque ripple is vitally important. I am not at all surprised you found the more modern DD tables to be better because of this reason alone.

How should we measure the torque of a direct drive when playing? Direct drive turntable turntables have dynamic torque - usually higher at start up to speed fast to normal speed, very low when they lock to correct speed and are playing. If we try to measure it by conventional means, they immediately increase torque. IMO we should not mix the start-up transient torque with drive operating torque.

 

[morricab]

How should we measure the torque of a direct drive when playing? Direct drive turntable turntables have dynamic torque - usually higher at start up to speed fast to normal speed, very low when they lock to correct speed and are playing. If we try to measure it by conventional means, they immediately increase torque. IMO we should not mix the start-up transient torque with drive operating torque.

Torque ripple is the inconsistency of the torque being applied. Under a high torque scenario, the ripple is going to negligible; however, once the platter is at “cruising speed”and the torque needed to keep the platter at that speed is low, the torque ripple will be a significant contribution to the overall torque being applied. I think this is a big contributor to the perception of dryness a lot of inferior DDs suffer from.
Another potential problem is that high torque means high acceleration potential and if control software is not carefully calibrated too sudden speed changes can occur, which some think is also responsible for negative sound side effects.
In contrast, a high mass belt drive with low torque motor simply cannot change speed quickly, which of course has its own issues.

 

[morricab]

In Brinkmann I only like the balance, not the other models.

I don't have enought exposure to PC. the field coil arm seemed excellent at Mike's, I wasn't impressed with the non-FC arms. I must say all DDs look visually nice to me because of small footprint

That’s surprising because the Brinkmann Bardo/Oasis/Taurus are low torque/high mass like STST and pretty much universally praised.

 

[bonzo75]

That’s surprising because the Brinkmann Bardo/Oasis/Taurus are low torque/high mass like STST and pretty much universally praised.

I am not saying I like it because it is low torque, just an observation I like it and it is low torque.

Maybe the suspension helps. It is adjustable so can change the sound.

 

[microstrip]

Torque ripple is the inconsistency of the torque being applied. Under a high torque scenario, the ripple is going to negligible; however, once the platter is at “cruising speed”and the torque needed to keep the platter at that speed is low, the torque ripple will be a significant contribution to the overall torque being applied. I think this is a big contributor to the perception of dryness a lot of inferior DDs suffer from.
Another potential problem is that high torque means high acceleration potential and if control software is not carefully calibrated too sudden speed changes can occur, which some think is also responsible for negative sound side effects.
In contrast, a high mass belt drive with low torque motor simply cannot change speed quickly, which of course has its own issues.

Thanks, but you did not address my main point - quantification of DD torque when the turntable is operating at normal speed. Nothing in instrumental reality seems to support your "feeling" - I am not addressing subjective perceptions, that I respect. IMO what you refer is a mix of Newton Law, poor design of control systems and audiophile myths. Other than the control system the relevant aspects are platter mass and friction.

Again, I am not addressing poor designs of DD technique, just those most audiophiles and known designers consider SOTA.

 

[morricab]

Thanks, but you did not address my main point - quantification of DD torque when the turntable is operating at normal speed. Nothing in instrumental reality seems to support your "feeling" - I am not addressing subjective perceptions, that I respect. IMO what you refer is a mix of Newton Law, poor design of control systems and audiophile myths. Other than the control system the relevant aspects are platter mass and friction.

Again, I am not addressing poor designs of DD technique, just those most audiophiles and known designers consider SOTA.

Higher Torque available will mean greater resistance to change in speed from load, but the rate of change in speed must be regulated correctly to not be audible…not so trivial to do correctly. Kenwood, for the L-07, had a very sophisticated nested set of loops with loose and tight control depending on the variations.

Welcome to the Unofficial Kenwood L-07D Direct Drive Turntable Website Motor Page

 

[morricab]

I am not saying I like it because it is low torque, just an observation I like it and it is low torque.

Maybe the suspension helps. It is adjustable so can change the sound.

I doubt the suspension has much to do with it