Natural Sound

[Lagonda]

I have a different method which involves setting down the stylus in a portion of the LP that has high modulation and with the volume all the way down, seeing how far from the machine I can hear the stylus tracking the groove. It should be dead silent (all resonance in the LP damped). If its easy to hear you know there's a problem.

LMAO! Engineering is what makes electricity work and airplanes fly so if you wish to deny engineering facts don't use those things either

What you seem to be saying is you've never given a Technics a chance and likely don't like the idea that you spent too much on your machine so troll me instead.

Technics made the only turntables (SP10Mk3) which are so speed stable and powerful they can be used for LP mastering; Stan Ricker used one for his work. Enough of them have seen this service that its likely such LPs are in your collection right now...

I am not saying it is a bad TT, my mother owned the top model in the mid nineties, but as good as it gets, no way as good as the best. My Nakamichi Dragon CT sounded better and it was really not that good either.

 

[Lagonda]

I have heard the new Technics are really good. Good enough some very well known people own and use them. They say, why waste your money buying a more expensive table that does not sound as good. I tried to convince a good friend to get one. He could not get beyond the low price. Thought it had to be of lesser quality.

You bought one for yourself of course ?

 

[bonzo75]

Oh I forget Rex’s STST Motus II which is a suspended low torque DD is quite good, nice tone and flow. The suspension can sometimes cause a slight hump in mid bass like some Garrards, but in the EU is a good value relatively lower priced table.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have heard the new Technics are really good. Good enough some very well known people own and use them. They say, why waste your money buying a more expensive table that does not sound as good. I tried to convince a good friend to get one. He could not get beyond the low price. Thought it had to be of lesser quality.

i think many turntables can sound good, but that's not the whole story. until you hear another 'better' turntable side by side with better flow. at one point i had the Dobbins Technics SP-10 Mk2 and also the Dobbins SP-10 Mk3, and the Dobbins the Beat and the NVS all together plus the Dobbins Garrard 301.

the Beat and the NVS were another level beyond the two Technics in terms of flow. and this was an early NVS, not my later build one. and those SP-10's were objectively very very good. i know there are Richard Krebs motors for the SP-10 that are said to be 'better', but never had the chance to compare one to anything else.

so liking a turntable and it having good performance is a different thing than how it 'flows' in the larger scheme of things.....especially for DD turntables.

the new Technics SP-10 is very very good and i'm not knocking it. i've not heard one other than at a show. and not heard one with an exotic plinth either. but unless it's directly compared to higher level turntables it's hard to assume anything. i did hear the SAT XD1 at Axpona last year which uses the SP-10 as a build component and heavily modifies it. that one sounded really good in the system i heard it in. fantastic.

 

[microstrip]

And this statement is enough reason for me never to buy any of your products, how can your ears be trusted.

Surely Ralph doesn't expect you to buy any of his products .

Considering his ears, thousands of audiophiles can attest for them. In fact, when I owned his MP1 and MA2 OTL's I got more recognition from audiophiles than with any other equipment.

Effectively, a few days demo carried at an AudioShow in Lisbon with MA2 and Soundlab A1's in the 90's still persists in the memory of the audiophiles who visited the place as a sound quality benchmark. As I was told sometime ago by the organizer at an audiophile diner - the most memorable AudioShow of ever!

Ralph participation in the high-end is remarkable - he even sold kits of his M60's at low price so that people could own them at reduced cost and shared its schematic, many people built their own OTL- as it had no output transformer it was a gift for most people - I helped a few people building them.

During the long period I owned the MA2 - MP1 Ralph supplied me with parts and instructions to carry successive upgrades - curiously the only other manufacturer who did the same was Lew Johnson.

 

[Atmasphere]

He could not get beyond the low price. Thought it had to be of lesser quality.

And that right there is the Veblen Effect.

I am not saying it is a bad TT, my mother owned the top model in the mid nineties, but as good as it gets, no way as good as the best. My Nakamichi Dragon CT sounded better and it was really not that good either.

Perhaps you missed the bit about the platter pad where I pointed out the stock platter pads on Technics machines are junk. Also that the platter pad has a more noticeable effect than the drive. That was just on the last page.

Oracle makes one of the better platter pads available in high end today. To use it you have to permanently apply it to the platter on which it will be used. But its pretty effective at damping LP resonance as well as damping the platter, both of which have measurable and audible effect. When the LP is properly damped, the measurable distortion goes down; clarity goes up and bass impact improves.

The top model was the SP10 MkIII which still go for a lot on ebay these days. If you didn't change out the platter pad, you really didn't hear what the turntable was about. The other problem with the SP series machines (and why I prefer the SL1200G which I have used with a different arm) is they don't have a proper plinth. A proper plinth will have very rigid and damped coupling between the platter and the tone arm; to do that you have to have a very solid base. SP10s were mounted to wood on which the tonearm was mounted so if there was anything causing vibration (like loudspeakers), that vibration could be interpreted by the pickup (arm and cartridge) as a coloration since the tonearm would be vibrating in a very different way from the platter. I applied this information in the production of our model 208 turntable, which was belt drive and heavily damped. You could tap the platter while it was playing and not hear it in the speaker. But I think the SL1200G is a better machine and its less expensive so why make the 208?

the only other manufacturer who did the same was Lew Johnson.

Lew was quite a gentleman.

 

[PeterA]

This statement is simply false. On the anecdotal side I've yet to hear a belt drive or idler machine keep up with a Technics; a good number of those belt and idler machines were also more expensive than the Technics.

What does 'keep up with" actually mean in this context? I get in trouble for describing something as sounding "natural". I do not have fond memories of hearing a Technics SP10 MK3 in my old system. It was distinctly unnatural sounding.

 

[PeterA]

Technics made the only turntables (SP10Mk3) which are so speed stable and powerful they can be used for LP mastering; Stan Ricker used one for his work. Enough of them have seen this service that its likely such LPs are in your collection right now...

I listened to and speed tested an SP10Mk3 in my former system some ten years ago. Speed looked perfect according to the Sutherland TimeLine strobe device. I did not like the sound of the table though, nor did the owner when compared to my table at the time. Proper speed is necessary, but it is not sufficient for good sound, IMO.

 

[PeterA]

I have heard the new Technics are really good. Good enough some very well known people own and use them. They say, why waste your money buying a more expensive table that does not sound as good. I tried to convince a good friend to get one. He could not get beyond the low price. Thought it had to be of lesser quality.

I have a friend who bought one a few years ago. He told me he really likes it, but in our various exchanges, I get the sense he does more listening to his digital source.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Perhaps you missed the bit about the platter pad where I pointed out the stock platter pads on Technics machines are junk. Also that the platter pad has a more noticeable effect than the drive. That was just on the last page.

Oracle makes one of the better platter pads available in high end today. To use it you have to permanently apply it to the platter on which it will be used. But its pretty effective at damping LP resonance as well as damping the platter, both of which have measurable and audible effect. When the LP is properly damped, the measurable distortion goes down; clarity goes up and bass impact improves.

The top model was the SP10 MkIII which still go for a lot on ebay these days. If you didn't change out the platter pad, you really didn't hear what the turntable was about. The other problem with the SP series machines (and why I prefer the SL1200G which I have used with a different arm) is they don't have a proper plinth. A proper plinth will have very rigid and damped coupling between the platter and the tone arm; to do that you have to have a very solid base. SP10s were mounted to wood on which the tonearm was mounted so if there was anything causing vibration (like loudspeakers), that vibration could be interpreted by the pickup (arm and cartridge) as a coloration since the tonearm would be vibrating in a very different way from the platter. I applied this information in the production of our model 208 turntable, which was belt drive and heavily damped. You could tap the platter while it was playing and not hear it in the speaker. But I think the SL1200G is a better machine and its less expensive so why make the 208?

never used the stock plinth in either of my SP-10's, both had Dobbins plinths, and never used the platter pad either.

i bought my Mk III with the stock plinth but never used it; sent it to Steve Dobbins for his plinth.

they still were very nice tt's, very fine for the dollars, but to my ears not competitive with higher level newer DD designs i had back then. compared to new under $20k tt's, both SP-10's certainly held their own. the enemy of the good is the very good. nothing negative and could be a centerpiece for a very good vintage system. the great thing about vinyl is a merely good competent turntable can sound amazing with good pressings and decent arms, carts and phono. with vinyl, media rules. the hardware can hardly hold it back. you do have to get past the basic hardware level, but when you do good things happen. the SP-10's were/are well past that basic level.