Natural Sound

[DasguteOhr]

Don’t these have brushes? I think they run straight off 24V DC. A BLDC needs to have some kind of commutation, like a sine wave, to work. Also, while some of these are slotless, they still have Iron in the stator and therefore aome torque ripple.

All these AC synchronous motors will have plenty of torque ripple that can only be smoothed by a belt but not eliminated.

The only motors with inherently almost no torque ripple are pancake coreless motors that are either brush or brushless. All the great Japanese (and German Dual) motors were of this type. Brinkmann now uses the same…even for their Nalance belt drive.

yes, they are brushless DC motors. below is a 256 line disc with grid size of 0.4mm. the encoder communicates with the control unit and second sensor e.g. at the platter. clock frequency ~65khz. The voltage is selectable 12-60 volt dc I think perfect for battery operation.
yes the dual eds 1000 motor is one of the best direct drives under 0.02%

 

[microstrip]

Yes, you should definitely not have written " no one optimises the controller for the specific motor unit " and i corrected you professor !

Yes, thanks for remembering that I did it long ago, and many members of DIYaudio forums also did it. TechDas zero also optimize it. I was addressing the turntable industry in general, not the exceptional crazy audiophiles. Have you also optimized yours? I can refer to it in the next post!

 

[DasguteOhr]

many find this really good precise sinus 50hz.

LDA Quartz Turntable Power Supply MKII

The LDA Quartz Regenerator will allow you to get the best sound possible from your turntable. It’s that simple. The unit is supplied with a mains power lead to suit your country (UK-EU-AUS-USA) and a cable from the power supply to your chosen turntable. Available to suit voltage in any country...

www.longdogaudio.com

a user's measurement result

 

[Lagonda]

Yes, thanks for remembering that I did it long ago, and many members of DIYaudio forums also did it. TechDas zero also optimize it. I was addressing the turntable industry in general, not the exceptional crazy audiophiles. Have you also optimized yours? I can refer to it in the next post!

No, plain old controller running with capacitor is good enough for me, i am using the one from Davids budget turntable, the AS 2000

 

[Kingrex]

@Solypsa
Can something like this be attached to my TT motor?

LDA Quartz Turntable Power Supply MKII

The LDA Quartz Regenerator will allow you to get the best sound possible from your turntable. It’s that simple. The unit is supplied with a mains power lead to suit your country (UK-EU-AUS-USA) and a cable from the power supply to your chosen turntable. Available to suit voltage in any country...

www.longdogaudio.com

 

[morricab]

many find this really good precise sinus 50hz.

LDA Quartz Turntable Power Supply MKII

The LDA Quartz Regenerator will allow you to get the best sound possible from your turntable. It’s that simple. The unit is supplied with a mains power lead to suit your country (UK-EU-AUS-USA) and a cable from the power supply to your chosen turntable. Available to suit voltage in any country...

www.longdogaudio.com

a user's measurement resultView attachment 143485

Exclusive P3 was something like 0.001% speed accuracy and 0.003% wow and flutter…truly remarkable. The motor is something the likes of which may never be seen again.

Exclusive/Pioneer P3 Specification Exclusive/Pioneer

I have a P10 motor at home with same design as P3…it’s extraordinary…

 

[PeterA]

Yes, thanks for remembering that I did it long ago, and many members of DIYaudio forums also did it. TechDas zero also optimize it. I was addressing the turntable industry in general, not the exceptional crazy audiophiles. Have you also optimized yours? I can refer to it in the next post!

Come on Francisco. Milan simply corrected your claim. He pointed out that you made a mistake just like you pointed out that I made a mistake. You should thank him for the additional information and not be so defensive and dismissive. These are not the exceptionally crazy audio files. We are on a forum that discusses, learns about, and celebrates the best in the industry. You are embarking on a turntable project and trying to gather information. Personally, I am grateful there are people like Bill and manufacturers like TechDAS and designers like David Karmeli, who are pushing the envelope and trying to improve a very mature technology. Those who are interested in this approach, surely benefit. You may want to check out the new SOTA turntable as you continue your research.

 

[microstrip]

Come on Francisco. Milan simply corrected your claim. He pointed out that you made a mistake just like you pointed out that I made a mistake. You should thank him for the additional information and not be so defensive and dismissive. These are not the exceptionally crazy audio files. We are on a forum that discusses, learns about, and celebrates the best in the industry. You are embarking on a turntable project and trying to gather information. Personally, I am grateful there are people like Bill and manufacturers like TechDAS and designers like David Karmeli, who are pushing the envelope and trying to improve a very mature technology. Those who are interested in this approach, surely benefit. You may want to check out the new SOTA turntable as you continue your research.

Now you mix audiophiles with audio files ... Freudian slip? Are you going to thank me for me for pointing your mistake?

 

[PeterA]

First of all, I’m not researching linguistics or spelling the way you are researching your next turntable. I am not collecting data. Second of all, I write these posts by dictating into Siri and Siri does not know the word audio file the way you spell it and she always capitalizes the a. Sometimes I’m too lazy to then edit. Why bother?

Audio files are what streamers value.

 

[Lagonda]

First of all, I’m not researching linguistics or spelling the way you are researching your next turntable. I am not collecting data. Second of all, I write these posts by dictating into Siri and Siri does not know the word audio file the way you spell it and she always capitalizes the a. Sometimes I’m too lazy to then edit. Why bother?

Audio files are what streamers value.

How can you dictate into Siri with the music playing ?

 

[microstrip]

First of all, I’m not researching linguistics or spelling the way you are researching your next turntable. I am not collecting data. Second of all, I write these posts by dictating into Siri and Siri does not know the word audio file the way you spell it and she always capitalizes the a. Sometimes I’m too lazy to then edit. Why bother?

Audio files are what streamers value.

Peter,

You seem to be obsessed with my data collection. FIY, I am not exactly researching for my next turntable. The videos you provided carried interesting information that could provide technical fundamental information about your turntable, my audiophile curiosity asked you for another video to provide a calibration point. I now have it, thanks. I am not considering air-bearing turntables, do not be afraid I am building a replica of DDK turntable at a local workshop!

Scientists and engineers need to be curious. During several decades I have worked in those two fields, expect me to be curious about these stereo related matters.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

You seem to be obsessed with my data collection. FIY, I am not exactly researching for my next turntable. The videos you provided carried interesting information that could provide technical fundamental information about your turntable, my audiophile curiosity asked you for another video to provide a calibration point. I now have it, thanks. I am not considering air-bearing turntables, do not be afraid I am building a replica of DDK turntable at a local workshop!

Scientists and engineers need to be curious. During several decades I have worked in those two fields, expect me to be curious about these stereo related matters.

You often switch subjects and jump around. I find it very difficult to have any kind of meaningful discussion. So you have left the topic of the word audiophile and Freud and now suggest you’re even capable of producing an AS 2000 with the information you have gleamed.

Maybe someday you will find the data you seek about stylus drag of an un driven platter during the last five minutes of an LP side.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Exclusive P3 was something like 0.001% speed accuracy and 0.003% wow and flutter…truly remarkable. The motor is something the likes of which may never be seen again.

Exclusive/Pioneer P3 Specification Exclusive/Pioneer

I have a P10 motor at home with same design as P3…it’s extraordinary…

I think a good stable sine wave will help any AC motor , even if the mains frequency is stable like here in germany.

Online-Messung der Netzfrequenz

Messung und Anzeige der Netzfrequenz des europäischen Verbundnetzes mit Berechnung der aktuellen Regelleistung

www.netzfrequenzmessung.de

 

[tima]

How can you dictate into Siri with the music playing ?

sign language ?

 

[morricab]

I think a good stable sine wave will help any AC motor , even if the mains frequency is stable like here in germany.

Online-Messung der Netzfrequenz

Messung und Anzeige der Netzfrequenz des europäischen Verbundnetzes mit Berechnung der aktuellen Regelleistung

www.netzfrequenzmessung.de

Exclusive P3/P10 are not AC motors.

 

[microstrip]

You often switch subjects and jump around. I find it very difficult to have any kind of meaningful discussion. So you have left the topic of the word audiophile and Freud and now suggest you’re even capable of producing an AS 2000 with the information you have gleamed.

Maybe someday you will find the data you seek about stylus drag of an un driven platter during the last five minutes of an LP side.

I see you also need Siri for reading ... Your interpretation of my words is wrong, even abusive.

And, yes, as as result of this debate some one sent me privately some very useful data on variation of stylus drag along the LP. I am always learning.

 

[PeterA]

I see you also need Siri for reading ... Your interpretation of my words is wrong, even abusive.

And, yes, as as result of this debate some one sent me privately some very useful data on variation of stylus drag along the LP. I am always learning.

Surely we are here debating audio publicly so that we can learn. I suspect that data will vary depending on design. For instance, lighter platters or more bearing friction, even those that utilize some form of breaking will show different results. Motor, controller, and interface solutions are likely designed for specific cases.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Exclusive P3/P10 are not AC motors.

I know that Brad,
According to the tests in the old Hifi Exklusiv magazines, you can determine the speed to within about 0.04% using a perfect test record. After that,begins phantasy.
The best wow&flutter meters from the past, EMT, Ortofon, had the smallest maximum size of 0.02%. I wonder how they determined this value of 0.003 %

II don't know which edition that was month/year

hifimuseum.de - Sie sind im Bereich : HIFI exklusiv 1980

 

[Atmasphere]

Do you expect your turntable to be very different?

The master oscillator of the signal generator of the sinusoidal generator is probably a quartz oscillator - the result shown by Peter shows that there is no belt slippage, a good sign.

Anyway people should remember that the great analog LPs were sourced from tape machines, that had not such "high-end" speed requirements - they focused on the important parameters, such as wow and flutter and scrape flutter. It is why my reference for analog stereo sound is my own Studer A80 playing master tapes recorded in a duplicating system using similar machines.

Many of the studio tape machines (not the Studer´s ) used synchronous motors on the capstan. In such motors speed is proportional to mains frequency - see https://www.mainsfrequency.com/. And yet the recordings were fabulous!

The wow and flutter is not detectable as a pitch variation. In a turntable though it can cause the arm to oscillate above the stylus location, causing a difference in tracking pressure between the left and right channels. Tape of course is immune to this problem.

 

[Atmasphere]

The TD 124 has a belt too.

It is pointless to compare DDs to belts, they will have good measurements with usually a start stop sound due to the clogging.

'Cogging' is the right term and most DD turntables these days don't suffer that issue any more than belt drive. IOW its a non-issue.