Natural Sound

[bonzo75]

Or Alexia's with subs. Or Trios's. Or Magico Q7 mk2 . Who knows?

Don’t do trios, else you will make true my prediction that you will move to it after your favourite reviewer did

 

[Lagonda]

Peter is going to come back from skiing and have a heart attack when he sees what happened to his natural sound thread !

 

[bonzo75]

Peter is going to come back from skiing and have a heart attack when he sees what happened to his natural sound thread !

Why, micro is moving from Wilson’s to stats and considering horns and new analog. Natural sound redux

 

[microstrip]

Don’t do trios, else you will make true my prediction that you will move to it after your favourite reviewer did

I wrote very nice things in WBF about the Trio's long before Jacob Heilbrunn referred to them. I have an open mind about good speakers, every one has equal possibility of making a true prediction.

More than twenty years ago I considered building an active system using the Trio units, Bottlehead SET amplifiers and a Marchand crossover, but in the end I considered that buying the SoundLab A1PX was more realistic.

 

[Bruno Rivademar]

And please read his disclaimer.
View attachment 143388

I'm aware of that disclaimer. Fremer is attempting to put a blanket on the naked emperor.

 

[Al M.]

You are just going back to natural sound

Everyone worth their salt has been there all along. It's not a monopoly of the Natural Sound crowd and their favorite topologies.

 

[bonzo75]

Everyone worth their salt has been there all along.

Are you going analog then or reducing salt to manage BP while reading the forum

 

[Al M.]

Are you going analog then or reducing salt to manage BP while reading the forum

Neither. BP is low, doctor was very pleased.

 

[PeterA]

Take a look at that video. The roadrunner shows a number every 1,5 to 2 seconds. Acording to what we are seeing that turntable is as good as the AS turntable in terms of speed variation. It varies pretty much 1 decimal point once it's settled.

I think the Falcon controls the speed by hunting and correcting. The AS2000 has no correction. It relies on the 150 lb platter mass, very low bearing friction, and high quality motor for speed stability. The motor spins at a constant speed based on voltage. It does not need the Folcan for correction.

It is just a different approach to speed stability and it affects the sound.

 

[PeterA]

Yes if you cannot hear the difference it does not matter much, but motor torque, pole numbers and flywheels, internal or external, make a big difference in sound. Heard with my own ears on my own turntable, not read in a textbook. You will probably come to the same conclusions once you start experimenting.

Milan, this is very true. One really starts to learn when experimenting and listening to the results. I would include belt or thread type and tension in your list of factors.

 

[PeterA]

Yes, the white paper of Grand Prix Audio turntables addressed this aspect in great detail - it is why they measure the speed around 16000 times per revolution - I thing I am not being wrong, I have not checked the exact number. Technical brochures of old DD japanese turntables also addressed it.

these use correction systems to speed up or slow down the motor. it is a very different approach to the problem. and they sound different. no hunting and correcting.

 

[tima]

It is pointless to compare DDs to belts, they will have good measurements with usually a start stop sound due to the clogging.

Modern DD have coreless motors, no cogging.

 

[PeterA]

And please read his disclaimer.
View attachment 143388

“averages over time.”

 

[PeterA]

Everyone worth their salt has been there all along. It's not a monopoly of the Natural Sound crowd and their favorite topologies.

Al, there is a big difference. Natural sound is demonstrated using simple phone videos over YouTube.

 

[tima]

It's not a monopoly of the Natural Sound crowd and their favorite topollogging.

Nice to see you finally figured this out. No one in the Natural Sound crowd ever claimed it was.

 

[PeterA]

Modern DD have coreless motors, no cogging.

Tim, that might explain why my old Denon sounds so good.

 

[PeterA]

Nice to see you finally figured this out. No one in the Natural Sound crowd ever claimed it was.

Exactly! One of the biggest misconceptions about this thread.

 

[morricab]

Modern DD have coreless motors, no cogging.

The best old ones were also coreless…long before modern ones came back to the idea.

 

[morricab]

Tim, that might explain why my old Denon sounds so good.

Your Denon did not use a coreless motor…none of the old Denons or Technics did. Kenwood did, Yamaha did, Pioneer did, Nakanmichi did, JVC did and Onkyo did…could be missing some. From Germany, Dual made a very nice motor as well.

A friend of mine had the same Denon as you…it was good but a far cry from the likes of a Yamaha GT-2000 or Exclusive P3. You should buy a Yanaha and find out for yourself…not too expensive and come up often on HiFi Do.

 

[morricab]

It measures once every revolution, unless you are sugesting it both speeds up and slows down inside this revolution , it is pretty precise.

Once per revolution is far too coarse for that speed to have any meaning for speed stability. It will both slow down and speed up throughout that rotation. Where the AS has potentially an advantage is the RATE of speed change (otherwise known as acceleration) is probably slow and this makes the speed changes arguably less audible.

The mistake that many early DD designs made was that the speed correction was too fast and prone to over and undershoot, both of which are quite audible. By the early 80s they had this issue solved and the best ones still sound very competitive with the best today.