Natural Sound

[microstrip]

I know that Brad,
According to the tests in the old Hifi Exklusiv magazines, you can determine the speed to within about 0.04% using a perfect test record. After that,begins phantasy.

Yes. theoretically the precision of the speed measurement is limited by the frequency of the signal and the time length of the test track when using counters. However recording the signal digitally and using fitting or other techniques based in software we can overcome this limit using phase information.

But yes, IMO going over .1% is a phantasy, unless we operate a radio station and advertisers pay us fortune for each second of adverts ...

The best wow&flutter meters from the past, EMT, Ortofon, had the smallest maximum size of 0.02%. I wonder how they determined this value of 0.003 %

II don't know which edition that was month/year

hifimuseum.de - Sie sind im Bereich : HIFI exklusiv 1980

The old Leader LFM-39A , that was considered the Rolls-Royce of the audio meters, had a wow and flutter full scale range of 0.03% - I think it could easily carry such measurement. I saw these meters going for high values at eBay, I resigned to get the cheap Kenwood.

The manual is available at http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/Leader/LEADER LFM-39A Instruction Manual.pdf

 

[DasguteOhr]

The problem is not the measuring devices - an EMT can do that easily - but the correct playback of the signal from the LP is the problem. Is the pickup correctly adjusted, is the LP perfectly centered, does the center hole of the LP have just a little play on the mandrel... questions upon questions. The test in hifi exclusive, where many measuring records were tested, came to the conclusion that all under 0.04% were not 100% safe to use. At the time, hifi exclusive magazine had engineers from hifi development in its measuring team. Really well-founded knowledge - I'm a complete beginner compared to that.
That's why I have my doubts about such low values. You don't to forget that the Pioneer came onto the market in 1979 the machine is certainly very good and ahead of its time. In Japan there was a competition to see who could get the best values. The Dual looked very cheap in comparison, but this thing rocks.

 

[microstrip]

The problem is not the measuring devices - an EMT can do that easily - but the correct playback of the signal from the LP is the problem. (...)

Thanks for pointing - this limitation was described in detail in the white paper of Grand Prix Audio explaining the development of their turntables. I could not find it in my archives and Grand Prix Audio seems to have supressed any vestige of it on the net - even ChatGPT could not find it! Probably our member Tima has them in storage, he owns a Monaco 2.0 .

This turntable specifications are so good that can't be measured with LPs - we must rely on the data they supply - unweighted peak flutter of less than 0.002% in earlier versions, "Incalculable" in the current one!

 

[morricab]

The problem is not the measuring devices - an EMT can do that easily - but the correct playback of the signal from the LP is the problem. Is the pickup correctly adjusted, is the LP perfectly centered, does the center hole of the LP have just a little play on the mandrel... questions upon questions. The test in hifi exclusive, where many measuring records were tested, came to the conclusion that all under 0.04% were not 100% safe to use. At the time, hifi exclusive magazine had engineers from hifi development in its measuring team. Really well-founded knowledge - I'm a complete beginner compared to that.
That's why I have my doubts about such low values. You don't to forget that the Pioneer came onto the market in 1979 the machine is certainly very good and ahead of its time. In Japan there was a competition to see who could get the best values. The Dual looked very cheap in comparison, but this thing rocks.


View attachment 143585

What I have seen is the Exclusive has 0.003% with FG method and 0.015% with JIS record method for wow and flutter. Speed accuracy of 0.001%. S/N of 70 or 78dB depending on method.
Yamaha GT2000 has w&F of 0.005% (FG method)…no speed accuracy mentioned and S/N of 85dB!

 

[DasguteOhr]

Thanks for pointing - this limitation was described in detail in the white paper of Grand Prix Audio explaining the development of their turntables. I could not find it in my archives and Grand Prix Audio seems to have supressed any vestige of it on the net - even ChatGPT could not find it! Probably our member Tima has them in storage, he owns a Monaco 2.0 .

This turntable specifications are so good that can't be measured with LPs - we must rely on the data they supply - unweighted peak flutter of less than 0.002% in earlier versions, "Incalculable" in the current one!

That's probably why the maxon motor is so popular. If I understand correctly, it communicates with digital signals with controls and sensors. There is an interface that you can connect to the computer. This way you can evaluate the synchronization (w&f) over days if you want.
Or the dereneville motor ou can program everything, e.g. ramping up the platter, adjusting load conditions to the mass of the platter. Rainer Horstman has developed something really special.

Dereneville

Dereneville by AVDesignhaus

www.dereneville.de

 

[XV-1]

What I have seen is the Exclusive has 0.003% with FG method and 0.015% with JIS record method for wow and flutter. Speed accuracy of 0.001%. S/N of 70 or 78dB depending on method.
Yamaha GT2000 has w&F of 0.005% (FG method)…no speed accuracy mentioned and S/N of 85dB!

Sometime in the very early 80s, the EIAJ (Electronics Industry Association of Japan) changed their DIN B measurement methodology.

The P3/P3a s/n went up to 95db.
10db higher than the GT2000.

 

[DasguteOhr]

here you can find almost everything about test records &w&f mesurements

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[Lagonda]

That's probably why the maxon motor is so popular. If I understand correctly, it communicates with digital signals with controls and sensors. There is an interface that you can connect to the computer. This way you can evaluate the synchronization (w&f) over days if you want.
Or the dereneville motor ou can program everything, e.g. ramping up the platter, adjusting load conditions to the mass of the platter. Rainer Horstman has developed something really special.

Dereneville

Dereneville by AVDesignhaus

www.dereneville.de

His tone arms are technical marvels too. And he is a very nice and friendly guy ! He was active on WBF for awhile.