Natural Sound

[microstrip]

I know that Brad,
According to the tests in the old Hifi Exklusiv magazines, you can determine the speed to within about 0.04% using a perfect test record. After that,begins phantasy.

Yes. theoretically the precision of the speed measurement is limited by the frequency of the signal and the time length of the test track when using counters. However recording the signal digitally and using fitting or other techniques based in software we can overcome this limit using phase information.

But yes, IMO going over .1% is a phantasy, unless we operate a radio station and advertisers pay us fortune for each second of adverts ...

The best wow&flutter meters from the past, EMT, Ortofon, had the smallest maximum size of 0.02%. I wonder how they determined this value of 0.003 %

II don't know which edition that was month/year

hifimuseum.de - Sie sind im Bereich : HIFI exklusiv 1980

The old Leader LFM-39A , that was considered the Rolls-Royce of the audio meters, had a wow and flutter full scale range of 0.03% - I think it could easily carry such measurement. I saw these meters going for high values at eBay, I resigned to get the cheap Kenwood.

The manual is available at http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/Leader/LEADER LFM-39A Instruction Manual.pdf

 

[DasguteOhr]

The problem is not the measuring devices - an EMT can do that easily - but the correct playback of the signal from the LP is the problem. Is the pickup correctly adjusted, is the LP perfectly centered, does the center hole of the LP have just a little play on the mandrel... questions upon questions. The test in hifi exclusive, where many measuring records were tested, came to the conclusion that all under 0.04% were not 100% safe to use. At the time, hifi exclusive magazine had engineers from hifi development in its measuring team. Really well-founded knowledge - I'm a complete beginner compared to that.
That's why I have my doubts about such low values. You don't to forget that the Pioneer came onto the market in 1979 the machine is certainly very good and ahead of its time. In Japan there was a competition to see who could get the best values. The Dual looked very cheap in comparison, but this thing rocks.

 

[microstrip]

The problem is not the measuring devices - an EMT can do that easily - but the correct playback of the signal from the LP is the problem. (...)

Thanks for pointing - this limitation was described in detail in the white paper of Grand Prix Audio explaining the development of their turntables. I could not find it in my archives and Grand Prix Audio seems to have supressed any vestige of it on the net - even ChatGPT could not find it! Probably our member Tima has them in storage, he owns a Monaco 2.0 .

This turntable specifications are so good that can't be measured with LPs - we must rely on the data they supply - unweighted peak flutter of less than 0.002% in earlier versions, "Incalculable" in the current one!

 

[morricab]

The problem is not the measuring devices - an EMT can do that easily - but the correct playback of the signal from the LP is the problem. Is the pickup correctly adjusted, is the LP perfectly centered, does the center hole of the LP have just a little play on the mandrel... questions upon questions. The test in hifi exclusive, where many measuring records were tested, came to the conclusion that all under 0.04% were not 100% safe to use. At the time, hifi exclusive magazine had engineers from hifi development in its measuring team. Really well-founded knowledge - I'm a complete beginner compared to that.
That's why I have my doubts about such low values. You don't to forget that the Pioneer came onto the market in 1979 the machine is certainly very good and ahead of its time. In Japan there was a competition to see who could get the best values. The Dual looked very cheap in comparison, but this thing rocks.


View attachment 143585

What I have seen is the Exclusive has 0.003% with FG method and 0.015% with JIS record method for wow and flutter. Speed accuracy of 0.001%. S/N of 70 or 78dB depending on method.
Yamaha GT2000 has w&F of 0.005% (FG method)…no speed accuracy mentioned and S/N of 85dB!

 

[DasguteOhr]

Thanks for pointing - this limitation was described in detail in the white paper of Grand Prix Audio explaining the development of their turntables. I could not find it in my archives and Grand Prix Audio seems to have supressed any vestige of it on the net - even ChatGPT could not find it! Probably our member Tima has them in storage, he owns a Monaco 2.0 .

This turntable specifications are so good that can't be measured with LPs - we must rely on the data they supply - unweighted peak flutter of less than 0.002% in earlier versions, "Incalculable" in the current one!

That's probably why the maxon motor is so popular. If I understand correctly, it communicates with digital signals with controls and sensors. There is an interface that you can connect to the computer. This way you can evaluate the synchronization (w&f) over days if you want.
Or the dereneville motor ou can program everything, e.g. ramping up the platter, adjusting load conditions to the mass of the platter. Rainer Horstman has developed something really special.

Dereneville

Dereneville by AVDesignhaus

www.dereneville.de

 

[XV-1]

What I have seen is the Exclusive has 0.003% with FG method and 0.015% with JIS record method for wow and flutter. Speed accuracy of 0.001%. S/N of 70 or 78dB depending on method.
Yamaha GT2000 has w&F of 0.005% (FG method)…no speed accuracy mentioned and S/N of 85dB!

Sometime in the very early 80s, the EIAJ (Electronics Industry Association of Japan) changed their DIN B measurement methodology.

The P3/P3a s/n went up to 95db.
10db higher than the GT2000.

 

[DasguteOhr]

here you can find almost everything about test records &w&f mesurements

Site Map

 

[Lagonda]

That's probably why the maxon motor is so popular. If I understand correctly, it communicates with digital signals with controls and sensors. There is an interface that you can connect to the computer. This way you can evaluate the synchronization (w&f) over days if you want.
Or the dereneville motor ou can program everything, e.g. ramping up the platter, adjusting load conditions to the mass of the platter. Rainer Horstman has developed something really special.

Dereneville

Dereneville by AVDesignhaus

www.dereneville.de

His tone arms are technical marvels too. And he is a very nice and friendly guy ! He was active on WBF for awhile.

 

[DasguteOhr]

His tone arms are technical marvels too. And he is a very nice and friendly guy ! He was active on WBF for awhile.

Stunning craftmanship
He lives almost in the neighborhood, I always wanted to visit him.
To my shame, it has been forgotten. I think he still on the German analog forum active.

 

[Lagonda]

Stunning craftmanship
He lives almost in the neighborhood, I always wanted to visit him.
To my shame, it has been forgotten. I think he still on the German analog forum active.

He invited me to come visit if i was ever in the neighborhood.

 

[microstrip]

His tone arms are technical marvels too. And he is a very nice and friendly guy ! He was active on WBF for awhile.

If this tonearm has been developed and available thirty years ago I would find it hard to resist - although I always say that there is no perfection in this hobby, for me the Derenville is the tonearm that approaches perfection. Reading a vinyl groove as it was cut with minimal interference.

I can't see how this turntable is still available - at this price if it was in Europe it would probably sell next day! https://www.usaudiomart.com/details...but-with-air-tangent-arm-and-extra-arm-board/

At that time a friendly audiophile living close to me owned an Oracle Premier mk3 and a Basis Gold Debut - I managed to buy his Oracle, but unfortunately not the Basis ...

 

[Atmasphere]

If this tonearm has been developed and available thirty years ago I would find it hard to resist - although I always say that there is no perfection in this hobby, for me the Derenville is the tonearm that approaches perfection. Reading a vinyl groove as it was cut with minimal interference.

OK that's got my interest! I rebuilt a Rabco about 40 years ago so that it would be reliable and not 'hang up' and skip as many of them did. I designed my own concept for the idea but never built it. I've been a big fan of the Triplanar as its arguably one of the most adjustable arms made (and with the best bearings, yada yada) but this looks like its the next step.

 

[DasguteOhr]

The model 5 triggers a big desire to have it unfortunately I don't have the money for it



P.S goodbye to all setting templates exactly on 1 /1000mm.

 

[tima]

Modern DD have coreless motors, no cogging.

Hunt and seek then

Now you are no longer describing the motor. The motor does not hunt and seek. You are talking, I assume, about the controller or the drive system, from whom the motor receives input. I will say that 'hunt and seek' a) do not mean non-cogging and b )are not informative words to describe the drive system of modern DD tables such as the Technics or the Monaco. I know more details about the Monaco so I will describe for you how it works.

The Monaco's drive system uses a 40 MIPS (million of instruction per second) Digital Signal Processing (DSP) controller optimized for precision motor control coupled to an optically encoded feedback loop to monitor and control the motor. It features an encoder disc with over 4,700 individual lines attached beneath the platter. For the Monaco 2, Hall sensors report platter speed to the controller by reading the lines as they pass through it at the rate of over 166,000 times per second, running at 33 1/3rpm. Since it takes ~1.8 seconds for a single revolution at 33 1/3 rpm that is almost 300,000 reads per revolution.

The DSP controller calculates the speed of the platter based upon the elapsed time between each passing line on the disc and then feeds the motor the appropriate amount of energy to maintain the set speed. Individual speed measurements and current adjustments to the motor (if required) can occur at a rate over 1,000 times per second. The system makes extremely sensitive adjustments to the energy being fed to the motor in a way that will maintain speed accuracy. Peak deviation from a perfect 33 1/3 rpm rotational speed for the 2.0 is typically better than 0.0001% (1ppm). The result is extremely smooth control of the platter, I daresay the opposite of that implied by hunt and seek.

 

[bonzo75]

Now you are no longer describing the motor. The motor does not hunt and seek. You are talking, I assume, about the controller or the drive system, from whom the motor receives input. I will say that 'hunt and seek' a) do not mean non-cogging and b )are not informative words to describe the drive system of modern DD tables such as the Technics or the Monaco. I know more details about the Monaco so I will describe for you how it works.

The Monaco's drive system uses a 40 MIPS (million of instruction per second) Digital Signal Processing (DSP) controller optimized for precision motor control coupled to an optically encoded feedback loop to monitor and control the motor. It features an encoder disc with over 4,700 individual lines attached beneath the platter. For the Monaco 2, Hall sensors report platter speed to the controller by reading the lines as they pass through it at the rate of over 166,000 times per second, running at 33 1/3rpm. Since it takes ~1.8 seconds for a single revolution at 33 1/3 rpm that is almost 300,000 reads per revolution.

The DSP controller calculates the speed of the platter based upon the elapsed time between each passing line on the disc and then feeds the motor the appropriate amount of energy to maintain the set speed. Individual speed measurements and current adjustments to the motor (if required) can occur at a rate over 1,000 times per second. The system makes extremely sensitive adjustments to the energy being fed to the motor in a way that will maintain speed accuracy. Peak deviation from a perfect 33 1/3 rpm rotational speed for the 2.0 is typically better than 0.0001% (1ppm). The result is extremely smooth control of the platter, I daresay the opposite of that implied by hunt and seek.

End result is both have lack of flow and a bit digital sounding and lack tone compared to belts and idlers, in multiple systems in-room and on videos. Whether it is the controller or motor doing it some engineer can break it down to analyse

 

[Atmasphere]

End result is both have lack of flow and a bit digital sounding and lack tone compared to belts and idlers, in multiple systems in-room and on videos. Whether it is the controller or motor doing it some engineer can break it down to analyse

This statement is simply false. On the anecdotal side I've yet to hear a belt drive or idler machine keep up with a Technics; a good number of those belt and idler machines were also more expensive than the Technics. But there's this thing called the Veblen Effect; about 110 years ago Mr. Veblen (an economist) noted that people often buy more expensive things because they think they are getting greater value, which of course isn't always the case. If a manufacturer knows this fact they might mark up the price to take advantage of that phenomena.

High end audio isn't driven by price; its driven by intention. That is why a manufacturer like Technics can produce turntables that are considerably less expensive than the competition in high end audio which it handily beats in all regards. All they have to do is price to a formula rather than what the market will bear.

I recommend you make some recordings and have them transferred to LP so you have something you can use that's actually a real reference. That's not all that expensive to do; less than many of the components talked about on this thread alone, even if you factor in the cost of an excellent set of microphones and an excellent recorder of your choice, along with the cost of mastering the LP and producing tests (at the very least). The big trick is actually finding a recording opportunity which yields a recording and performance you'll be able to play over and over.

'Hunting' just so you know, is a term that describes what happens when a servo isn't quite dialed in. Technics (Panasonic) has a rather large R&D department and in that department things like control theory (the science of feedback and servo control, in itself a field that is well understood except in the world of audio where there's a lot of 'by gosh and by golly' instead of real engineering...) are well understood. Technics DD turntables don't 'hunt' because the servo is very well designed by people that know what they are doing.

FWIW, the platter pad has a much greater effect on the sound than the means of the drive. Most of the platter pads I've seen which include those on stock Technics are so much junk.

 

[microstrip]

(...) 'Hunting' just so you know, is a term that describes what happens when a servo isn't quite dialed in. Technics (Panasonic) has a rather large R&D department and in that department things like control theory (the science of feedback and servo control, in itself a field that is well understood except in the world of audio where there's a lot of 'by gosh and by golly' instead of real engineering...) are well understood. Technics DD turntables don't 'hunt' because the servo is very well designed by people that know what they are doing.

In fact, the typical synchronous motor can be considered a poor device to drive turntables. Torque is not perfectly uniform along the rotation - it has the so called torque ripple. Fortunately the rotor mass inertia uniformizes rotation speed. It is why designers add flywheels and rely on elastic belts to drive platters. Some manufacturers prefer outer rotor geometries because of their intrinsic larger moment of inertia capabilities.

A synchronous motor could benefit from a controller supplying a sinusoidal drive with some distortion to help reducing torque ripple - it is an old technique called harmonic injection. But audiophiles prefer to rely on inertia to disguise the ripple torque induced noise.

FWIW, the platter pad has a much greater effect on the sound than the means of the drive. Most of the platter pads I've seen which include those on stock Technics are so much junk.

Yes - the platter pad is a major contributor to sound attributes of the turntable. People having turntables with two tonearms can easily check-it using an old recipe used in platter development - listen to a tonearm playing a silent inner groove while the other tonearm plays a loud track. Be careful doing it - you have to push the volume button high to carry the experiment. I did it a spectra meter - much more sensitive and risk free. Unfortunately I can't remember where I learned about it.

 

[Lagonda]

This statement is simply false. On the anecdotal side I've yet to hear a belt drive or idler machine keep up with a Technics; a good number of those belt and idler machines were also more expensive than the Technics.

And this statement is enough reason for me never to buy any of your products, how can your ears be trusted.

 

[Atmasphere]

Yes - the platter pad is a major contributor to sound attributes of the turntable. People having turntables with two tonearms can easily check-it using an old recipe used in platter development - listen to a tonearm playing a silent inner groove while the other tonearm plays a loud track. Be careful doing it - you have to push the volume button high to carry the experiment.

I have a different method which involves setting down the stylus in a portion of the LP that has high modulation and with the volume all the way down, seeing how far from the machine I can hear the stylus tracking the groove. It should be dead silent (all resonance in the LP damped). If its easy to hear you know there's a problem.

And this statement is enough reason for me never to buy any of your products, how can your ears be trusted.

LMAO! Engineering is what makes electricity work and airplanes fly so if you wish to deny engineering facts don't use those things either

What you seem to be saying is you've never given a Technics a chance and likely don't like the idea that you spent too much on your machine so troll me instead.

Technics made the only turntables (SP10Mk3) which are so speed stable and powerful they can be used for LP mastering; Stan Ricker used one for his work. Enough of them have seen this service that its likely such LPs are in your collection right now...

 

[Kingrex]

I have heard the new Technics are really good. Good enough some very well known people own and use them. They say, why waste your money buying a more expensive table that does not sound as good. I tried to convince a good friend to get one. He could not get beyond the low price. Thought it had to be of lesser quality.