No intention to torpedo, just (as usual for me) wanting to stand up for "truth in advertising". As one who hears live acoustic music virtually every day (piano, guitar, recorder, voice, etc) I'm pretty sure I have at least as good a reference as anyone for "natural sound", and as far as I am concerned the goal for reproducing that in an audio system is "high fidelity". Sorry if I (incorrectly?) assume that is what "What's Best Forum" is about...
Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
Well, I can understand this is Peter's system thread and if he want's to narrow the discussion to his system, that's his prerogative.
Personally, I find the tangents to be thought provoking. Take them away and the system thread might be 2 pages instead of 42 and by now buried in the dusty back pages of WBF -- until David visits to tweak the system or you make another change in a couple of years.
And, more to the point, because the thread is titled "Natural Sound" and the core of thread is your quest to attain the concept of natural sound, it really can't be helped that tangental ideas related to this concept are going to bubble up.
From my experience, all the best conversations are the one's that are allowed to grow and meander naturally -- (cannot escape that word). You've started something, let it go, and when you again have something relating to your system to add, bring it up again. Your ragtag thread followers will re-focus for awhile and then maybe start wandering again. All good.
Personally, I find the tangents to be thought provoking. Take them away and the system thread might be 2 pages instead of 42 and by now buried in the dusty back pages of WBF -- until David visits to tweak the system or you make another change in a couple of years.
And, more to the point, because the thread is titled "Natural Sound" and the core of thread is your quest to attain the concept of natural sound, it really can't be helped that tangental ideas related to this concept are going to bubble up.
From my experience, all the best conversations are the one's that are allowed to grow and meander naturally -- (cannot escape that word). You've started something, let it go, and when you again have something relating to your system to add, bring it up again. Your ragtag thread followers will re-focus for awhile and then maybe start wandering again. All good.
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This is exactly how developed my sense of when sounds right. I had a profi violinist playing daily in listening room (I also made recordings). Then I heard several house concerts (quartet, quintet, piano solo, piano duo, piano trio, cello duo). Really helps to dial in awareness of what is truly different about live...which is the ultimate natural sound...rbbert, if you’ve read these threads you already know there are many of us who find the term “natural” to be much too loosely defined to be of much value. And the “you know it when you hear it“ definition is of little help. But this has already been discussed multiple times so rehashing it won’t clear it up.
With my room nearly empty selling off my rig and waiting for delivery of all new kit, I am strongly considering hiring a couple musicians to perform in my room. A brief concert if you will for myself and a couple audio buddies. I’d love to hear a guitar, a sax, and a bowed instrument. I know a restaurant owner who regularly books jazz artists, so this could happen. I can’t imagine a more true reference. Of course, my room is a treated space, so there will be those who say its not “natural” sounding!
IIRC John Culshaw was the producer, not the recording engineer. He wrote a book called 'Ring Resounding' which was included in the box set of the Ring Cycle sold in the 1970s. Its an interesting read! But what he was getting at was to add the sounds that you would hear in a performance- the anvils being hit by the enslaved dwarves, the sound of the ring being thrown by Wotan on the heap of winnings to the Giants, the sound of Brunehilde riding Grane into the funeral flames and so on. To create a sense of height, the Rhinemaidens were even perched with their harpists in a balcony over the stage during Das Rhinegold. The actual recording technique used was the same as most of the Decca projects with these sounds added in their natural perspective.These are great recordings - some people consider them as the best of the best. I only own digital versions of them. But they are not "Natural Sound" at all ...
Taken form the Wikipedia article on John Culshaw, the producer of this Decca series:
"In these productions Culshaw put into practice his belief that a properly-made sound recording should create what he called "a theatre of the mind".[37] He disliked live recordings such as those attempted at Bayreuth; to him they were technically flawed and, crucially, were merely sound recordings of a theatrical performance. He sought to make recordings that compensated for the lack of the visual element by subtle production techniques, impossible in live recordings, that conjured up the action in the listener's head "
Anyone wanting to know more about Culshaw approach to stereo recording can download for free the paper " Making and hearing virtual worlds: John Culshaw and the art of record production "by David Patmore and Eric F. Clarke at https://www.researchgate.net/public...John_Culshaw_and_the_Art_of_Record_Production
It is a long essay, that needs complete reading , but I quote two provocative sentences from it :
"In essence, the techniques of recording, Culshaw argued, often enabled a more faithful realization of the composer’s wishes to be achieved in the recording studio than in the routine that frequently characterised the live performance."
‘The question beginning to emerge in 1960 was whether the gramophone record, which has long been said to be as good or as nearly as good as the concert hall, should even try to be anything like the Concert Hall. Was the gramophone record in fact something that could exist in its own right, without attempting to imitate at all the kind of sound or performance you would necessarily have in the Concert Hall.’
Now you are telling others what to call the threads they start. I chose the title of this thread carefully and for good reason.
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Keith, if you have read my two system threads, you know full well that I did more than just change my speaker and amp in the end. The entire system is new starting from the moment I began my experiments to make the old system sound more natural. That includes selling off my two Japanese cartridges and removing all cabling, power cords, equipment platforms, and room treatments. As I explained, and as captured in various system videos, the sound changed quite a lot right up to the decision to change my turntable. I explained clearly that to go further, I needed to change my source, electronics, and speakers. Each was done with deliberation.
Just because I have had Pass Labs gear for twenty years, that does not mean that I have not heard alternatives or compared Pass to other brands in other systems. It is true that I did not spend a year traveling and writing about a speaker search. All I needed was a week in Utah and exposure to four high efficiency systems. Jeffrey_T will hear the system soon, and you will be able to ask him privately what he thinks of the sound compared to what I had.
I am also quite surprised that you could follow my two threads and not realize or remember that Carla White is my aunt. I have heard her perform many many times, from NYC, to Tokyo, to St. Croix, to Boston at my wedding. She sang acapella to me, I heard her rehearse in her parents' house in Seattle. She recorded the message on my answering machine in the 1980s. I heard her many times sing unamplified. I really don't understand this complete failure to grasp this.
"Natural Sound" is anything but a synonym for "sound I prefer". Have you read my list of characteristics or attributes I recognize on "natural sounding systems"? It is a long list and quite distinct from the characteristics I have heard from your system and many others. In fact we discussed this at your apartment when I heard your Devores and the frequency response.
Once I went to Utah and the opportunity presented itself to buy this gear, I did not see the need to follow your advice to travel around the East Coast auditioning horn and other high efficiency speakers. It was also not easy during COVID. I heard what I wanted and I bought it.
I must say, your synopsis above of what I have done and why is far removed from what I have written in my two system threads.
The bottom line is the speaker/amp change took a week while you spent years following this other path for improvements that were clearly exaggerated. I don't really care what Jeff thinks about your system. Didn't know Carla was your aunt either, but insert any other artist into the same mix.
Nice jab at my own path, now twice, in *your system* thread. And my Devores are unnatural now lol- love it!. And our experiences at Disney Hall pales to your "natural sound" pursuit despite you having never been there.
Peter, good luck with your journey. But I'm not part of the natural sound cult and reading the amount of Enya-based audio on this thread isn't enlightening.
The list of sonic attributes describing "Natural Sound" in post #5 of this topic is what I have always thought of as sought after goals for an audiophile's music system. More to the point, they are consistent with Holt's (especially) and Pearson's goals from the early days of audiophile reviews and periodicals (admittedly that list of desirable attributes may have been bastardized in later years.) As has been repeatedly mentioned, though, it isn't necessarily anything special or unique to the audio system that is the primary focus of this thread.
Das Rheingold is certainly a nice counterpoint to Enya
Keith, when a part of the frequency response stands out and the overall presentation is not balanced, I do not consider the system to have natural sound.
I was actually very happy with my Magico Q3 speakers for three years. I made many videos of them and often reported how much I enjoyed them. I ended up selling them for as much as I bought them for. I only sold them because I wanted to Go one step further in the natural sound direction with SET amplifiers. And then the corner horns were in part and aesthetic decision to get speakers out from the middle of the room and back into the corners for more space. But it was a great decision based on what I heard them do in Utah. The speakers were one more step in the direction of natural Sound.
WBF should be a convivial place to gather and to discuss audio. Calling a group of members who have a similar approach with their systems that differs from yours or more conventional approaches a “cult” is pretty divisive and not conducive to healing and unity. I think we are better than that as a community.
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You will find it very difficult to get a speaker fully balanced. That is a SOTA speaker and what most are searching for and few find. Devore orangutans, at least are brilliant compromise speakers. Extremely natural, as good as tannoy or elecrostats as a substitute. You can always better these speakers with an all out approach but difficult to better them commercially for normal rooms and medium budgets.
While Keith's model is different than the orangutans, tough to believe it will be non natural. Will it be compromised? Sure, but no more or less than any good compromise.
Devore with SETs are also one of the most transparent to recordings. The stage changes with every recording, so you can enjoy different concerts as you change LPs. The late art Dudley loved them, bought them after months of review. I preferred them to 20k and 65k Lansche in the same room, and our Shunyata chief Cgabriel replaced his Wilson Sasha with them.
Devore orangutans, like tannoys or Martin Logans, are in the good enough and sufficient for most though not ultimate category if one wants to play audio as a competitive sport
Kedar, If you read carefully you will see did I did not refer specifically to speakers or to brands. I referred to a system that did not sound balanced to me. The owner agreed. That discussion was not about speakers. It was about the overall presentation of the system in the room.
I am talking about an overall system approach to natural sound. That is the topic of this thread. I am not here to bash specific brands. And I am not here to denegrate other people’s’ gear. In my last system thread, people came on repeatedly to bash my Magico speakers. I get that and it is part of the territory, but it was rude.
This thread is about a systemwide approach to a specific type of sound. I had no idea it would be so controversial and that people would make things so personal.
The latest system update is that the returned VDH Colibri now has about 20 hours on it. It is starting to exhibit the nuance that the moving magnet cartridge has and it retained the high level of resolution this cartridge is known for. My cabinet builder is making progress with the new rack, and I picked up the two new stainless steel plates for my amplifier stands.
I am hoping the rack comes together in the next few weeks. Jeff is visiting in a month and will bring a couple of Ortofon SPUs for me to play with.
I am sailing four or five times a week but my current sailboat does not have an audio system so I cannot listen to the great sounds of Enya.
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the 'cult' part comes from the inference of only one true approach to find musical reproductive truth. like any 'religion'.
the idea that that inference is not the undercurrent of this thread is to ignore reality. and btw; it's ok to view one's beliefs as singularly righteous. just own that.
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Steve,
Please write it clearly in the TOS and I will surely avoid doing anything than laudation of equipment in personnel members threads. I will be sorry for it, I think the forum benefits from debates and discussions, but it is your forum and I admit it is your prerogative. But IMHO as soon as a member entitles his system thread "Natural Sound " - and I admire him for doing it - he opened it to discussion. We know from the past that the subject is controversial.
BTW, let me say I do not find the use of "hifi" and "artificial" to describe the equipment and preference of the great majority (all of them minus a few) of the WBF members insulting as ssem to think, but I find it mostly poorly reasoned, of poor taste and somewhat arrogant. But it is me, I respect other people preferences and hope they do the same with mine.
Yes, without robust discussion a forum becomes boring. I strongly would object against a sanitized version of WBF.
Agreed. There is no problem with Peter inviting controversy with his thread title, but nobody then should be surprised when the discussion turns out the way it does.
Religions are not cults .
Certainty is an enviable position to be in and it always threatens the insecure.
david
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Francisco
This thread has gone in a multitude of directions. I like discussion. There has been plenty here but surely you must agree that the thread has taken some twists and off topic posts.
This is the best quote of the day. .......
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
I want to reassure everyone that the intent is not to sanitize this forum.
BTW, and FWIW I can't tell you how many PM's I get reporting posts from many of you here who complain about someone's post as being offensive, off topic argumentative etc etc etc. Many of you are posting in this thread. I try to maintain equanimity to all. As the saying goes, challenge the post and not the poster. There have been several posts here today with members sniping at one another. I merely ask to keep things polite and we can all get along
BTW, and FWIW I can't tell you how many PM's I get reporting posts from many of you here who complain about someone's post as being offensive, off topic argumentative etc etc etc. Many of you are posting in this thread. I try to maintain equanimity to all. As the saying goes, challenge the post and not the poster. There have been several posts here today with members sniping at one another. I merely ask to keep things polite and we can all get along
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