Natural Sound

[ddk]

Ok, here‘s a question...

I have an engineered acoustic space. I know some would say it is “damped” but I was happy when I walked into the showroom at Magico a few weeks back I heard very much the same as my own room. Perhaps a little more lively, but the room was also at least double the volume. I want to have some professional musicians come play live, un-amplified for myself and a tiny audience. Is the sound in my room going to be anything but “natural”?

You’re talking about the room and it’s overall general character which is damp or lively, nothing to do with natural as it pertains to the playback system.

If I try to build a music system that approaches that sound, will it not be “natural sound”?

Part of “natural” sound is in the system’s ability to differentiate between the recordings and the ambience of the venues, ie resolution. If your system always has “that sound” as you mentioned it’s colored not natural, lacks the resolution or is hindered by something.

I’m not trying to be a wise-ass, honestly. I’m completely serious. If those same musicians play upstairs in my overly live, echo-y, reverberant room, is that not also ‘natural sound’ even though it is going to be vastly different from my music room? If I build a system to match that sound, which system is more “natural sounding”?

Neither! A natural system needs to be neutral and reproduce each recording’s tone, timbre, ambience, etc. true to the venue and event not impose a quality. Playing back your recording from the live room should still sound like the live room when played back in the dampened one and vice versa.

david

 

[PeterA]

I disagree Peter. A live piano in a room will always sound live, regardless of how it’s tone character, decay and dynamics change from the room or your distance to the instrument. Same for all other acoustic sources. Your brain intrinsically knows the difference. Practice allows a more precise dialing in to that sense of realism.

I totally agree. It will always sound live and real and like a piano. My point is simply that it will not sound the same as different pianos in different rooms.

Did your girlfriend’s violin sound the same with different bows and when she played in different settings? Not likely, but it always sounded like a violin and it always sounded live and natural.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I totally agree. It will always sound live and real and like a piano. My point is simply that it will not sound the same as different pianos in different rooms.

Did your girlfriend’s colon sound the same with different bows and when she played in different settings? Not likely, but it always sounded like a violin and it always sounded live and natural.

Hi Peter - I would be super impressed if any relative of mine had a “colon” that sounded like a violin. Mostly sounds like a beginner tuba player or possibly trombonist with a smaller colon.

 

[dminches]

Hi Tim,
Bass is the most complicated parameter to deal with, not only regarding room acoustics and setup. It’s a challenge starting from the recording to the last component in the chain and everything in between and I’m not only talking about volume but quality. Most of the time we have to deal with bass in the speaker setup and seating position but IME when the system is capable of quality bass the ultimate solution is with floor design and not bass traps and definitely not any over the wall commercial product.

My room had a terrible bump at 41 Hz. The attached picture shows the measurements.


There was no way to get rid of this with floor material adjustments. Before I added bass traps the sound was boomy and awful.

That part I don't get about your approach is that any room has the ability to color the sound based on its dimensions, materials, system configuration, etc. Why wouldn't one want to eliminate the room's coloration in order to get back to "natural" sound?

 

[Lampie519]

That measurement sounds really natural !

 

[assessor43]

What i can say is that it was great that you listen to those speakers and the amplifiers before pulling the trigger knowing that even though you did not hear them in your room, you got a good idea of what was to follow. Many times especially with horn designs, getting a good amplifier match is key. I have heard some horn systems that simply just sound "too alive" for my liking. Over the top would be my description. If it is done right, there may be nothing better.

 

[morricab]

I like that lion picture. I heard that 11% of the men who use Roon think they can outrun a snow leopard.

View attachment 78424

From m empirical evidence, I can do both!

 

[morricab]

I totally agree. It will always sound live and real and like a piano. My point is simply that it will not sound the same as different pianos in different rooms.

Did your girlfriend’s violin sound the same with different bows and when she played in different settings? Not likely, but it always sounded like a violin and it always sounded live and natural.

No of course not and that is beside the point of the gestalt of sounding “real”. They all sound different but all live...your brain knows even if we don’t really understand how we can tell this so easily.

 

[morricab]

Sound of nature

Bringing down the gates of Jericho!

 

[Joe Whip]

My philosophy is really simple. Build the type of system and room you enjoy listening to. one man’s natural sound may be another’s boring, or hi fi or whatever. I have not heard Peter’s room, but if he enjoys it, that is great. That is the whole point of this hobby. Who am I to judge! We all have different processors between our ears. All this arguing is like arguing over what flavor of ice cream is best.

 

[PeterA]

one man's religion is another man's cult. it's all context.

see David, you own it lock, stock, and barrel. can't argue with that. disagree if i like, of course.

Peter just needs to man up and stop trying to please everyone. you OTOH, are not afflicted with that.

Mike, you don't think after all the posts defending my views to the critics I don't own this? Have you seen my two system threads and the Visit to Utah thread? I am confident in my views and certainly own them. I always have. I chose the title of this thread carefully knowing people would react.

More importantly, I am not trying to please anyone but myself. Not many people in these pages like the Colibris, SME, or Magico. People slam the Ching Cheng power cords and claim all rooms need treatment. People have come on to my threads and denigrated these choices for years right as I was describing why I made them. Now I am accused of trying to convince others they were the best. It is craziness! Many ridiculed my videos as being worthless and told me that they all SUCK. Now it seems a vintage system and the idea of "Natural Sound" is highly controversial. I take heat for criticizing "black backgrounds, pin point imaging, and "HiFi" sound.

I was questioned when returning from Utah and telling some friends what I heard and was planning to do. They were pretty surprised. I remember telling them bluntly, "That's fine, but frankly, all that matters to me is what I think."

I think this thread is being seen as a rejection of the status quo, the "High End", and the conventional way of thinking about and describing audio. I do not stream, I do not own a digital source. I sold my conventional high end set up seemingly overnight. People are offended by my description of the sound of my system and my use of the term "natural" and describing the opposite as "hifi". That is fine. Much of this I learned from David Karmeli, but I did not understand it until I visited Utah and heard it for myself. I suppose it is easy for others to simply criticise from a distance. David has the good sense to not discuss his system so publicly.

Your system is perhaps the opposite of David's. Both are attempts to assemble the extreme. It seems you have both succeeded. You both seem to enjoy your respective systems tremendously and many people like one or the other, and sometimes both, very much. That should all be celebrated. There are many ways to enjoy one's music collection. This is a hobby, and it is about having fun. People are free to come in here and complain, disrupt and insult, but it does not get us very far. Thank you for telling me what I should be doing.

 

[PeterA]

No of course not and that is beside the point of the gestalt of sounding “real”. They all sound different but all live...your brain knows even if we don’t really understand how we can tell this so easily.

Brad, I think when you say "a violin sounds real", it is similar to me saying "a violin sounds like a violin". We agree on this, at least I think we do. I wish my wife played violin for me in my house. That must have been wonderful.

 

[PeterA]

... we are close to 900 posts now, and no independent opinions of this new system... fascinating waste of bandwidth. I am outta here for the time being...

Eight people other than Ian and Al have heard my system. Some audiophiles, some musicians, and some simply friends over for dinner. They are not on this forum so they can not share their views with you. They shared them with me. And if I shared them here, you would not consider them independent opinions. Perhaps someday someone will visit and share his views here. Perhaps not. This does not seem to prevent others here from sharing their views though, LOL.

 

[jeff1225]

Mike, you don't think after all the posts defending my views to the critics I don't own this? Have you seen my two system threads and the Visit to Utah thread? I am confident in my views and certainly own them. I always have. I chose the title of this thread carefully knowing people would react.

More importantly, I am not trying to please anyone but myself. Not many people in these pages like the Colibris, SME, or Magico. People slam the Ching Cheng power cords and claim all rooms need treatment. People have come on to my threads and denigrated these choices for years right as I was describing why I made them. Now I am accused of trying to convince others they were the best. It is craziness! Many ridiculed my videos as being worthless and told me that they all SUCK. Now it seems a vintage system and the idea of "Natural Sound" is highly controversial. I take heat for criticizing "black backgrounds, pin point imaging, and "HiFi" sound.

I was questioned when returning from Utah and telling some friends what I heard and was planning to do. They were pretty surprised. I remember telling them bluntly, "That's fine, but frankly, all that matters to me is what I think."

I think this thread is being seen as a rejection of the status quo, the "High End", and the conventional way of thinking about and describing audio. I do not stream, I do not own a digital source. I sold my conventional high end set up seemingly overnight. People are offended by my description of the sound of my system and my use of the term "natural" and describing the opposite as "hifi". That is fine. Much of this I learned from David Karmeli, but I did not understand it until I visited Utah and heard it for myself. I suppose it is easy for others to simply criticise from a distance. David has the good sense to not discuss his system so publicly.

Your system is perhaps the opposite of David's. Both are attempts to assemble the extreme. It seems you have both succeeded. You both seem to enjoy your respective systems tremendously and many people like one or the other, and sometimes both, very much. That should all be celebrated. There are many ways to enjoy one's music collection. This is a hobby, and it is about having fun. People are free to come in here and complain, disrupt and insult, but it does not get us very far. Thank you for telling me what I should be doing.

Great post Peter.

 

[Steve williams]

well.......there is the chicken, and the pig.

with eggs the chicken is committed, yes. but with bacon, the pig is fully committed. not in any way ambiguous. all the way.

you are not quite the pig. it's still someone else's direction you are assimilating. this is just the view from the outside in. not saying about your ultimate intentions. you have your own perspective, of course.

i'm just having a little fun here, please don't take me too seriously.

Really??

Just shaking my head on this one. Not sure this is what I would call having a little fun

 

[rbbert]

...People slam the Ching Cheng power cords and claim all rooms need treatment...

Is it possible that criticism of the Ching Cheng power cords might have some validity? Did you notice that they were OEM with your Pass Labs equipment, as they were with Oppo and any number of other brands? When I went through my collection of power cords that have come with various components (some audio, some computer, some video) I found 9 Ching Cheng cords of what appear to be 3 different types. Food for thought?

Of course all rooms need "treatment", even if it is not via commercial products. Whether normal furnishings such as rugs, carpet, furniture, drapes, etc. work as well as purpose built products is another question.

 

[morricab]

Brad, I think when you say "a violin sounds real", it is similar to me saying "a violin sounds like a violin". We agree on this, at least I think we do. I wish my wife played violin for me in my house. That must have been wonderful.

No it’s not and this where you simply have got it wrong. There are characteristics of live that A) most recordings don’t capture and B) no system captures perfectly.
My system is good enough to distinguish different violins and even bow cHanged with dynamics that can track at least a solo violin well (much harder than you might imagine). Very few systems at this level fail to meet your criteria but nearly all fail mine.

 

[PeterA]

Mike Lavigne said:
well.......there is the chicken, and the pig.

with eggs the chicken is committed, yes. but with bacon, the pig is fully committed. not in any way ambiguous. all the way.

you are not quite the pig. it's still someone else's direction you are assimilating. this is just the view from the outside in. not saying about your ultimate intentions. you have your own perspective, of course.

i'm just having a little fun here, please don't take me too seriously.

Mike, This is a pretty strange way to express your fun. A chicken and a pig, really? So now one must invent an entire and unique approach to the hobby to be fully committed? That’s a pretty tall order. Of course I’ve been influenced by David Karmeli’s approach to the hobby. I went to Utah and enjoyed what I heard. And I decided to buy and switch things around. People used to say put your money where your mouth is. Now I guess there’s a much higher standard that I don’t seem to meet.

First I was criticized for sticking with Pass Labs for 20 years and now I am criticized for moving in a different direction and following someone else.

This thread seems to be shaking people up. So many comments and opinions and claims from people who have not heard the system. And so many very strange reactions.

I have no idea why you are commenting on my level of commitment to this system. Furthermore, why does it matter to you?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Really??

Just shaking my head on this one. Not sure this is what I would call having a little fun

i deleted that post within a minute of posting it. it was too over the top.

you had to have used your mod magic to respond based on the time. but that i suppose is your prerogative.

 

[Steve williams]

Is it possible that criticism of the Ching Cheng power cords might have some validity? Did you notice that they were OEM with your Pass Labs equipment, as they are with Oppo and any number of other brands? When I went through my collection of power cords that have come with various components (some audio, some computer, some video) I found 9 Ching Cheng cords of what appear to be 3 different types. Food for thought?

Of course all rooms need "treatment", even if it is not via commercial products. Whether normal furnishings such as rugs, carpet, furniture, drapes, etc. work as well as purpose built products is another question.

have you ever looked at the Ching Cheng catalog. They make hundreds of different power cords. Are you certain that yours are the same one David and many of us use