Natural Sound

[dwhistance]

Peter,

Just to let you know that there is at least one person watching who is interested in your new system and indeed in the thought process you went through to get to it. I must say I find the change inspiring. Even better your new corner horns have given you back a room in your home which was previously "lost" to hifi which must be good for domestic harmony.

I looked into Klipschorns years ago for myself but didn't buy/make a pair as like you we have a large fireplace in the space between where they would have to sit in our living room, albeit in our case the alcoves to the side are narrower so they really wouldn't have worked. We are about to extend which opens up new possibilities and I know my wife would prefer less obtrusive speakers than my Ocellias though I love them dearly. Given that Vitavox's like yours are to all intents unobtainable, I wonder if DDK, who I suspect has heard them all, might be willing to explain the differences in sound between your speakers and the modern Vitavox "copies" or indeed recent Klipschorns? If appropriate vintage drivers were sourced I wonder if it might be possible to create a modern copy with a similar sound to yours?

David Whistance

 

[PeterA]

Tim,

Please separate waters. People debate "Natural Sound" as sound reproduction concept. Unfortunately, even people who promote it do not even agree on how to identify it, calling it just natural, natural sound and now mixing it with the name of thread. A lot of confusion shows and something that is ambiguous becomes even more ambiguous and less defined.

I am hardly promoting anything. I am sharing my new system, what led up to the change, and how it now sounds. Lots of people agree with David's description of "Natural Sound". I even described what the systems I heard in Utah have in common. Not all of them were even horns. The fact that no one has taken my list and dissected it and argued an alternative, tells me that they do not disagree, or at least, strongly. Some even wrote that that list is nothing new and that all systems strive to meet those characteristics. Of course that is not true in my experience. There does not in fact appear to be much disagreement about what natural means. You just don't seem to like the term or understand it.

Tim suggests going to a concert hall to understand it. Steve suggests to go to Utah, but you need an invitation. Both offer good advice. One needs the live unamplified music experience to understand what he will experience in Utah. One is live, one is reproduced, but the similarities will be clear.

Now, I tried to get the subject back to my system by sharing how my listening habits are changing, but you seem to simply want to argue.

 

[wil]

To me, the terms High Fidelity and Natural sound are pretty much synonymous. And, I think the divisiveness that's cropped up on this thread is, at the core, a push back on the notion that the particular natural sound quest that Peter is pursuing, with Davids guidance, is somehow radically unique to what most audiophiles are pursuing. Yes, maybe Peter's move away from room treatment and audiophile cables, is somewhat unique. But the pursuit of sound that has the timbre of real instruments, the 3d illusion of real music and the connection to musicians performing are pretty universal.

I see Peter's approach as one path and it seems to be working for him. And I think he's articulated it exceedingly well. I think I've learned some things that have helped me achieve what I regard as a more natural sounding system. No doubt it sounds a lot different from Peter's but that shouldn't be a surprise.

I'm looking forward to hearing the recordings of the Sheherazade and Carla White again after the new cartridge and any tweaking after David's visit. Ironically, I thought the Magico system, (from the video) sounded more high fidelity/natural and simply communicated the music better to my ears, where I thought the new system sounded more colored. But I'm guessing the new system, based on Peter's reports, is/will end up sounding fantastic, particularly in person, after it's optimally set up.

 

[miniguy]

At some point I will get around to posting some more videos, but right now I’m just trying to find the time to listen to more music.

Spend less time responding to childish and useless posts.

 

[jeff1225]

With this new system I find that I am listening to music differently than I did before. My records are stored up on the third floor of my house away from the listening room. I usually bring down three or four records to listen to in an evening. It was often a mix of jazz and classical or large scale and small scale etc. I would usually listen to one or two sides of 45 RPMs and then one side of a few different standard LPs.

I find this routine has changed. I now bring down music of a certain genre, perhaps an evening of jazz, or an evening of chamber or orchestra. Sometimes only choral music. And instead of just listening to one side of a record and then moving onto something else, I am now much more likely to listen to both sides of an LP or the entire symphony.

Even though there are no independent reports of what my system sounds like besides that early one from my friend Ian, this change in listening habits seems to imply something about my new system and my connection to the music I choose to play on it.

I am now listening about equally to the Tecnics moving magnet and to the lower output Colibrí moving coil cartridge. At some point I will get around to posting some more videos, but right now I’m just trying to find the time to listen to more music.

That's funny because that's how I listen. I will actually have a night not just dedicated to a type of music but one specific composer or musician. I had a Bill Evans night last night, listening to his albums as a leader and albums like Miles Davis Kind of Blue where he is a featured artist.

 

[ddk]

My room had a terrible bump at 41 Hz. The attached picture shows the measurements.
View attachment 78427

There was no way to get rid of this with floor material adjustments. Before I added bass traps the sound was boomy and awful.

That part I don't get about your approach is that any room has the ability to color the sound based on its dimensions, materials, system configuration, etc. Why wouldn't one want to eliminate the room's coloration in order to get back to "natural" sound?

If this worked for you and you're happy it's great and nothing to argue about. Please read the first part of my post I mentioned about my desire not to introduce something too different from the overall sound of the space. I didn't pick a type of room because I have to deal with all types including padded ones and the solution has to fit problem and/or meet the owner's goals.

Floor construction is for the benefit of bass quality, the actual sound and not room nodes. Your graph only show a slight peak at a singular position of the microphone, there's no other information. Did you take other measurements around the room at different heights, maybe you could eliminate or ameliorate the problem enough by simply moving the listening position.One thing for sure there are no bass traps that will only target 41hz, if they work at all they'll attack a broader spectrum, maybe you should take another look and try to figure out what else was affected and if it's a good or a bad thing.

david

 

[dminches]

If this worked for you and you're happy it's great and nothing to argue about. Please read the first part of my post I mentioned about my desire not to introduce something too different from the overall sound of the space. I didn't pick a type of room because I have to deal with all types including padded ones and the solution has to fit problem and/or meet the owner's goals.

Floor construction is for the benefit of bass quality, the actual sound and not room nodes. Your graph only show a slight peak at a singular position of the microphone, there's no other information. Did you take other measurements around the room at different heights, maybe you could eliminate or ameliorate the problem enough by simply moving the listening position.One thing for sure there are no bass traps that will only target 41hz, if they work at all they'll attack a broader spectrum, maybe you should take another look and try to figure out what else was affected and if it's a good or a bad thing.

david

I worked with Jeff Hedback on this. He had me do recordings from 3 locations including the one where I sit. After all the treatments were installed we did another round of recordings to make sure more damage wasn’t caused as we tried to solve some issues. I agree one cannot just slap up room treatments without understanding the effect they have.

To my other point , don’t you want to eliminate the coloration caused by the room itself?

 

[ddk]

I worked with Jeff Hedback on this. He had me do recordings from 3 locations including the one where I sit. After all the treatments were installed we did another round of recordings to make sure more damage wasn’t caused as we tried to solve some issues. I agree one cannot just slap up room treatments without understanding the effect they have.

To my other point , don’t you want to eliminate the coloration caused by the room itself?

I’m unclear what you mean by eliminating room coloration David, there will alway be a box to deal with.

david

 

[MadFloyd]

With this new system I find that I am listening to music differently than I did before. My records are stored up on the third floor of my house away from the listening room. I usually bring down three or four records to listen to in an evening. It was often a mix of jazz and classical or large scale and small scale etc. I would usually listen to one or two sides of 45 RPMs and then one side of a few different standard LPs.

I find this routine has changed. I now bring down music of a certain genre, perhaps an evening of jazz, or an evening of chamber or orchestra. Sometimes only choral music. And instead of just listening to one side of a record and then moving onto something else, I am now much more likely to listen to both sides of an LP or the entire symphony.

Even though there are no independent reports of what my system sounds like besides that early one from my friend Ian, this change in listening habits seems to imply something about my new system and my connection to the music I choose to play on it.

I am now listening about equally to the Tecnics moving magnet and to the lower output Colibrí moving coil cartridge. At some point I will get around to posting some more videos, but right now I’m just trying to find the time to listen to more music.

I'm happy to hear you're listening more! I bet it helps that you don't have those big (albeit beautiful) space heaters any more.

Do you ever find yourself craving a different LP than what you had planned to listen to? I find myself too lazy to go up or down one flight of stairs at times...

 

[dminches]

I’m unclear what you mean by eliminating room coloration David, there will alway be a box to deal with.

david

I guess I mean that each space has it own characteristics which emphasizes some frequencies over others. Maybe "coloration" isn't the right word. In my case I had a node at 41 Hz and another at 250 Hz if I remember correctly.

 

[rbbert]

Honestly it's time to just start ignoring this guys posts. Move on Peter, keep talking about your listening experiences with this this new system. Posting pictures of the CC will solve nothing and is not worth the time.


View attachment 78439

It appears that many of you are very closed minded. It's unfortunate that healthy skepticism (especially when no facts are offered to counter it) can be regarded as trolling. Did Peter really think everyone would think that his journey was wonderful and that no one would question the rationale and possible motives (goals) behind it? Particularly when he named the thread "Natural Sound"? And then to posit "HiFi" as something very different and almost opposite to "Natural Sound"?

I am impressed that Peter has pretty much maintained his equanimity which is not so true for several other posters. ddk has likewise been courteous in his posts despite some criticisms directed at him, so kudos to both of them.

 

[ddk]

Peter,

Just to let you know that there is at least one person watching who is interested in your new system and indeed in the thought process you went through to get to it. I must say I find the change inspiring. Even better your new corner horns have given you back a room in your home which was previously "lost" to hifi which must be good for domestic harmony.

I looked into Klipschorns years ago for myself but didn't buy/make a pair as like you we have a large fireplace in the space between where they would have to sit in our living room, albeit in our case the alcoves to the side are narrower so they really wouldn't have worked. We are about to extend which opens up new possibilities and I know my wife would prefer less obtrusive speakers than my Ocellias though I love them dearly. Given that Vitavox's like yours are to all intents unobtainable, I wonder if DDK, who I suspect has heard them all, might be willing to explain the differences in sound between your speakers and the modern Vitavox "copies" or indeed recent Klipschorns? If appropriate vintage drivers were sourced I wonder if it might be possible to create a modern copy with a similar sound to yours?

David Whistance

I’m unfamiliar with new Klipschorns you should contact Robin Wyatt, @robyatt here. He’s a dealer and an all around great guy to work with.

I think I addressed this somewhere else in this thread but basically the speakers went through several iterations during their lifetime when the factory was open and the character changed and evolved during that period. It’s close to 60 years since then, the factory is no longer there and everything that went into building the speakers in the past is also gone. People who build the speakers today are different, the wood, the glue, crossover parts maybe even the design has changed too. I’m not saying the new ones are bad just that they’re a very different speaker.

david

 

[ddk]

I guess I mean that each space has it own characteristics which emphasizes some frequencies over others. Maybe "coloration" isn't the right word. In my case I had a node at 41 Hz and another at 250 Hz if I remember correctly.

Of course I deal with the room all the time including my own space just with other tools, more than one way to skin the cat. Not all problem frequencies are room related either there’s a good chance that problem comes from a component and this is where experience matters.

david

 

[ddk]

Anyway sorry, the concept still does not exist. Besides David and Peter, we still do not know what other systems are "Natural Sound" .

Why, because you want to deny it or miserably failed at it Francisco? A while back I posted a 60 year old video of Paul Klipsch discussing Natural Sound and it‘s not a concept. I don’t see any sincerity in you or any of your posts if there was any truth to your desire for a discussion you’d spend a little of that time and energy finding materials that talk about natural sound instead of instead of only negative ones and inserting stupid emojis into each post and snipe! You’re too transparent and not as clever as you think profesor! I’m really sorry for Peter that his desire to share something nice he’s happy about brought out the worst out of some here, otherwise I wouldn’t care at all.

david

 

[microstrip]

Why, because you want to deny it or miserably failed at it Francisco? A while back I posted a 60 year old video of Paul Klipsch discussing Natural Sound and it‘s not a concept. I don’t see any sincerity in you or any of your posts if there was any truth to your desire for a discussion you’d spend a little of that time and energy finding materials that talk about natural sound instead of instead of only negative ones and inserting stupid emojis into each post and snipe! You’re too transparent and not as clever as you think profesor! I’m really sorry for Peter that his desire to share something nice he’s happy about brought out the worst out of some here, otherwise I wouldn’t care at all.

david

I do not hope that people who know it all and have no curiosity to learn about stereo mechanisms and preference to find any interest in my questions. Fortunately, as you say I am transparent in my posts - our members will be able to judge by themselves their content, they do not need your help. I have no interests or agenda in this hobby - if I insist on some questions is mainly because no one has answered mine or other people very reasonable concerns on a system that divides audiophiles in natural sounding and hifi sounding.

You dislike my style , I dislike your aggressive and warrior style - it is part of life. I will go on focusing on facts, theories and posts content, you prefer to create pseudo- intentions in everyone who thinks differently in order to avoid clear questions. A pity, IMHO but you have a point - it is time to stop, unless Peter calls for it - and he often can't resist doing it.

I can discuss my Lamm experience in a separate thread if people are interested on it - but I think it is of little interest.
.

 

[ddk]

I do not hope that people who know it all and have no curiosity to learn about stereo mechanisms and preference to find any interest in my questions. Fortunately, as you say I am transparent in my posts - our members will be able to judge by themselves their content, they do not need your help. I have no interests or agenda in this hobby - if I insist on some questions is mainly because no one has answered mine or other people very reasonable concerns on a system that divides audiophiles in natural sounding and hifi sounding.

You dislike my style , I dislike your aggressive and warrior style - it is part of life. I will go on focusing on facts, theories and posts content, you prefer to create pseudo- intentions in everyone who thinks differently in order to avoid clear questions. A pity, IMHO but you have a point - it is time to stop, unless Peter calls for it - and he often can't resist doing it.

I can discuss my Lamm experience in a separate thread if people are interested on it - but I think it is of little interest.
.

What you describe isn’t’ true and none of this has anything to do with audio. I don’t dislike you or your style just don’t buy what you’re selling here. I said you’re transparent and I can see your true motives through your posts, that’s what’s obvious and transparent and I wasn’t complimentary! You’ve been asked several times very nicely by Peter not to loiter, if you’re really interested in the topic start your own thread. I’m not warrior like Francisco, I’m direct and don’t care to sneak around.

david

 

[Folsom]

It appears that many of you are very closed minded. It's unfortunate that healthy skepticism (especially when no facts are offered to counter it) can be regarded as trolling. Did Peter really think everyone would think that his journey was wonderful and that no one would question the rationale and possible motives (goals) behind it? Particularly when he named the thread "Natural Sound"? And then to posit "HiFi" as something very different and almost opposite to "Natural Sound"?

I am impressed that Peter has pretty much maintained his equanimity which is not so true for several other posters. ddk has likewise been courteous in his posts despite some criticisms directed at him, so kudos to both of them.

People are turned off by your aggressiveness about being "open minded".

I think what Peter is doing makes perfect sense. The speakers work for the room, their interesting, sound good, how do you lose? The TT is a forever turntable, without any ridiculous stuff added to it to "advance" it. The electronics are good and don't provide an intense itch to do anything else.

Do I think it's kinda far from sounding like live music? Ya in a fair amount of ways but it sounds like music someone would want to listen to. I think there is a certain sound to the Lamm stuff that is synonymous with the resolution it provides that also is a flavor of a type, but I'm not freaking out about it, because it sounds really good. By contrast your posts read more like "you'll be open minded when you agree with me". This is a subjective hobby, so I'm not sure why you're fishing for facts unless you literally don't want to find them.

For the record I don't think everything that isn't hifi is inherently "natural sound" as Peter and DDK know it, but I know when I hear HiFi... easily identified like when a MoFi record sounds better than other records on it. Black backgrounds... Screaching highs, make bad recordings sound repulsive, symbols sound dull... dynamics only come with big manipulation of the music in remastering, etc. Holographic... ya I said it, it's not an image it's a phantom of what a good imaging would be, often accompanied with a stark outline.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . There is a certain 'sense' that several feel either threatened or insulted by the effort to characterize or classify a type of sound. Some think the exercise is arrogant. Maybe some feel the phrase "natural sound" co-opts too much or something they hold dear but do not label as such. Some dismiss the effort as your description of what you like and giving it a fancy name.
. . .
I don't say there is a lot of disagreement because very little opposing view is offered, at least one that has much rationale behind it. Plenty of bellyaching about the notion of "natural sound" with scant original thinking or positive ideas for some alternative. The proxy for that, though itself not contributory, is to complain about the use of 'HiFi' as characterizing sound that is less than natural. I have yet to see a well thought out explication of what 'high fidelity' means to those who choose it in opposition. . . .

. . .

Efforts to conceptualize and clarify a certain approach to system building and assessment over the past few years here at WBF has led some of us to the point where we are now. I've said many times that the phrase "natural sound" does not have the explanatory power to stand on its own - at least for those encountering it without the background of what we've gone through. . . . I come to the notion from the angle of using live acoustic music as one's reference or guide when assessing system goals and results. . However, having participated in discussion here, I accept "natural sound" as a shortcut to both a concept and an actual stereo listening experience.

. . . Peter actually lays out his thoughts about what he hear's from a system he finds natural sounding. I've yet to see this from others, the 'hi-fi-ers' as it were.

I agree with this synopsis, as excerpted.

David has inspired Peter to articulate a set of sonic attributes which Peter hears consistently from certain different systems, but to varying degrees. Nowhere in the Natural Sound philosophy have I seen any requirement for vintage components or for Lamm electronics. The unified theory of Natural Sound Peter has proffered can be applied to a system comprised entirely of new audio components.

Has Peter's bullet-pointing of a comprehensive set of sonic attributes allowed Natural Sound to transcend the subjective, and become an objective compass for anyone who chooses to pick it up and be guided by it? Absolutely not. Peter's personal preferences, derived and honed from listening to live acoustic music, remain personal preferences. For people with similar sonic preferences to Peter's preferences, the Natural Sound philosophy is a roadmap to close the gap between what devotees of the philosophy hear in the concert hall and wish to hear in their listening rooms.

Not a single component in my future system (except, sadly, me) will be old enough to qualify as "vintage." (I personally think that some of the technical designs underlying the components have been around a long time, but the resulting components certainly are not vintage.) Nonetheless, I fully expect to feel that the sound allowing me to enjoy my favorite music will strike my ears as being "natural."

I share Tim's puzzlement that some members perceive Peter's attempt at a unified audio philosophy to be an insult to adherents of other sonic philosophies.

Correctly or incorrectly, I believe that I am less perturbable than most, at least with regard to the topics we discuss in this subjective hobby of audio. If 1) I wind up very happy with my future system, and 2) visitors report privately to third parties that my system sounds "hi-fi," I am going to take no offense. This is a subjective hobby. My only client is myself.

 

[Andrew S.]

I've always thought having a couch big enough to have a lie down on, and doing so, was the litmus test of how natural any system sounds...

 

[beaur]

Of course I deal with the room all the time including my own space just with other tools, more than one way to skin the cat. Not all problem frequencies are room related either there’s a good chance that problem comes from a component and this is where experience matters.

david

David solves the room problem by making his speakers a wall then move them to the best position to eliminate those issues!

Beau