Yes but Ron is a nice guy and would like to believe those audiophiles know what they are doing and have chosen the right speakers based on their likes and with full knowledge of the options
Natural Sound
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Yes but Ron is a nice guy and would like to believe those audiophiles know what they are doing and have chosen the right speakers based on their likes and with full knowledge of the options
I don’t see it quite that way Ron. Sometimes people like one music genre and they stick to forever but IME a lot of people with very expensive systems who don’t attend live music regularly are restricted by their systems to Diana Krall, Ana Caram and a limited set of audiophile titles and labels. A competent system opens the doors to many other types of music.
For me the electronics drive the choice of speakers not music genre. I see amp & pre as the heart of the system and what brings life to the sound, speakers should be complimentary.
The speakers are the last part of the chain everything else comes before them so where does the poor sound come from? I have a lot of 180g vinyl reissues of music I really like but can’t listen to them on any system, can’t blame the speakers the media sucks and if the speakers. Poor records are just that whatever the genre or vintage. I used to love Black Sabbath now even the lyrics put me to sleep, just not interested anymore. Can’t blame the speakers.
david
David, I really heard the potential of the Vitavoxs at your place, despite the compromises the room imposed. I see your point about the electronics driving the speaker choice. Most people think the opposite. I wanted efficient speakers in general, horns specifically because of what I heard at your place, and corner horns precisely because of my particular room and aesthetic/space considerations. That was one direction pulling me. The other was trying both the Lamm M1.1 on the Magicos and then the ML2s. The latter could not drive the Q3s properly, but I heard some magic there, just as you had years ago with the ML2s on tough load speakers. Once I heard the ML2s in my room, the Vitavox corner horns seemed like the PERFECT solution for my situation.
I can't really say in my case which drove which, amp or speaker, because both were very appealing in their own way. Now, having lived with this specific combination, I can say it all comes together beautifully in my particular room.
Also, with enough auditioning experiences, most will graduate to sets horns and classical so you will not be able to establish a correlation, just that sensible people with enough exposure and taste take to these two
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Probably the speaker would not have sounded as appealing without the ML2s or another good SET on them. The absences of "electronic" signature is what distinguishes superior electronics and the more you can strip that "electronicness" from the sound the more natural the sound becomes...then a very sensitive speaker can express itself fully without hearing those arifacts and it sounds pure.
So I’ve been listening to some different music today: Black Sabbath first album, Peggy Lee’s greatest hits, Lorde Pure Heroine.
I have thought this system distinguishes itself from the previous system with classical music and jazz, but it sounds awesome playing what I’m listening to today. Two areas stand out: bass quality and clarity with cymbals. Bass guitar riffs and drums have a visceral impact and presence in the room with the music cranked really loud that the former system could never do or even approach. It plays cleaner and louder. Rock music and symbols in particular with the old system at high volume was pretty harsh. These tubes/corner horns allow me to really crank it up. Al would probably be reaching for the SPL meter.
This is real let loose kind of fun. It is not at all what I bought the system for, but it is a very welcome surprise and a testament to this system playing a much greater range of genres than I was expecting or hoping for. I’m not saying it is the last word for rock, but the system has a much greater range then I was expecting.
When the Vitavox manual states that the speakers are coupled to the corners of the room and the room essentially becomes a giant bass horn and the listener is sitting inside the throat, I know what they are saying when Geezer or Ozzy go wild and let loose.
Al was over again last night comparing cartridges with me and getting a second listen to the system. Had I known about rock music, I might’ve played some for him but my wife was at home and trying to go to sleep on the third floor. Not the kind of music or volume the neighborhood needs on a Thursday evening at 10o’clock. As it was, Al and I played Scheherazade pretty loudly. Next time Al I wii play some rock.
I have thought this system distinguishes itself from the previous system with classical music and jazz, but it sounds awesome playing what I’m listening to today. Two areas stand out: bass quality and clarity with cymbals. Bass guitar riffs and drums have a visceral impact and presence in the room with the music cranked really loud that the former system could never do or even approach. It plays cleaner and louder. Rock music and symbols in particular with the old system at high volume was pretty harsh. These tubes/corner horns allow me to really crank it up. Al would probably be reaching for the SPL meter.
This is real let loose kind of fun. It is not at all what I bought the system for, but it is a very welcome surprise and a testament to this system playing a much greater range of genres than I was expecting or hoping for. I’m not saying it is the last word for rock, but the system has a much greater range then I was expecting.
When the Vitavox manual states that the speakers are coupled to the corners of the room and the room essentially becomes a giant bass horn and the listener is sitting inside the throat, I know what they are saying when Geezer or Ozzy go wild and let loose.
Al was over again last night comparing cartridges with me and getting a second listen to the system. Had I known about rock music, I might’ve played some for him but my wife was at home and trying to go to sleep on the third floor. Not the kind of music or volume the neighborhood needs on a Thursday evening at 10o’clock. As it was, Al and I played Scheherazade pretty loudly. Next time Al I wii play some rock.
Swami Ron,
Wow. And your comment attracted a small crowd. I assume that "materially different" means something other than X-material.
Since you ask, I will pollute Peter thread. Exactly the same way you and me do - using their perception of what life, real music sounds. Simply they have experience with other type of sounds, mostly amplified sound.
As their experience is different form ours, they create other biases and preferences.
BTW, only one of my audiophile friends who regularly listen to my system is a classical music lover, all others are mostly listeners of amplified music. We discuss classical versus amplified sound reproduction many times. I have been to many amplified music sessions - it is also a great experience, having some capabilities beyond acoustical music.
That's been my approach as a mature audiophile. The reverse was true when I was in college and just starting out with audio. I would say that back then music genre preference drove speaker selection and then I looked for electronics. As an experienced adult audiophile listening biases, which are not the same as music genre preferences, drive electronics choices and cable selection and then I look for compatible speakers.
So I had a very funny thing happen today. I had a friend who's a great drummer and record collector visit my system for two hours. We listened to just jazz, mostly post-bob albums of Bobby Hutcherson, Charles Rouse, Billy Harper and Stanley Cowell. He has a modest stereo system with Zu Souls, McIntosh intergraded and Transrotor turntable. A few weeks ago he listened to a system with Wilson Cronosonics that absolutely blew him away. He said it was the best high-fi system he'd ever heard.
We listened to a few records and he turned to me and said: "that Wilson system was fantastic, but I have to say I like this better. It sounds natural. the bass doesn't call attention to itself, the bass drum sounds like a real bass drum and the cymbals sound like my kit."
When he said the word "natural" I almost fell out of my chair and started laughing.
We listened to a few records and he turned to me and said: "that Wilson system was fantastic, but I have to say I like this better. It sounds natural. the bass doesn't call attention to itself, the bass drum sounds like a real bass drum and the cymbals sound like my kit."
When he said the word "natural" I almost fell out of my chair and started laughing.
Different people may mean different thins by "natural". For me natural sound means accurate or realistic (compared to live music) vocal and instrumental timbre and tonality which is priority #1 listening bias for me. While I listen to more jazz than anything I do not have a music genre preference at this point in my life. I also listen to classical, soundtracks, asian, middle eastern, and latin music, and the R&B I grew up listening to. I am aware of my listening biases. I'm a sucker for female vocals, and prefer small group and solo performances over big bands and full orchestras across all genres. I prefer the purity of Ella Fitzgerald's voice togehter with Joe Pass' guitar (and no one else) for example over Ella with Count Basie's big band. I don't care nearly as much about pinpoint imaging and soundstaging which you don't hear at live performances as I do about natural timbre and tonality. I can't stand electronic artifacts, shrill stings, or metallic piano, and have yet to hear solid state components at any price that I could live with.
Those with a prefered music genre will use instances of such to audtion/evaluate speakers. What is the likelihood they will evaluate using music they don't listen to or prefer? Is your hypothesis sufficiently self-fulfilling so as to be vacuous?
Hi Peter,
please try Tool Invincible.
On dynamic horn speakers it can sound can explosive with really punchy tight bass.
Love to know how it sounds on the Vitavox.
How wonderful. And there are still people participating on this thread who say the term natural is too vague and meaningless to be of any use to describe audio. Or it means whatever you want it to mean and everyone is after a natural sound anyway and considers his system to sound natural. It’s pretty funny.
You must’ve had a great time with your friend. Thank you for sharing this. It kind of says it all.
I'm becoming convinced that acceptance of 'natural' is a function of perspective - not entirely dissimilar to why we conjugate verbs. From a personal experience level ( I ) it is easy to adopt and say. From the perspective of describing or explaining 'natural' to someone else (you) it requires exactly that, describing or explaining. You cannot transfer your personal experience to another, thus more than a single word is needed. Jeffrey's example of his friend was first person.
Actually, I think in many cases the truth lies in the middle. I think both Ron and you have a point.
If Peter had posted I’d have said it was just a dream
well damn, I guess I've become a comedian!
As Tima said, perspective. You listen to a lot of live classical and jazz music, and you play a lot of recorded classical and jazz music. For others who do the same ”natural” makes sense. I see a classical concert once or twice every couple years. I saw an opera once—thats shits never gonna happen again. So as a reference that means the same thing to myself and my listening friends, that’ll never do.
I do enjoy small jazz venues, usually at a supper club. So I know what a sax sounds like, a stand-up bass, a clarinet, a small drum kit. Maybe because I'm a big guy my friends are afraid to critique my system? We discuss the sound of a breaking-in cable, use lots of terms we agree on. For myself and my circle of friends no-one has ever said “natural”.
I listened at a friends house the other night with smaller MBL speakers, the sound was pretty good but I'm not sure I’ve grown accustomed to the omni-directional presentation and side firing woofers. His room is really tough though. Compared to my previous Wilson ARC setup, it did not have the immediacy, dynamics, and focus. Not pin-point imaging, but focus like everything was somehow a bit blurred.
So I guess it did not sound natural. Who‘s description will be understood by the most people?
My thread is going to be “real sound”
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