Natural Sound

[PeterA]

@PeterA was the choice of Sipo for the stain matching / asthetic or also for vibration qualities?

excellent question. Initially it was only for aesthetics it was the recommendation from the cabinet maker after seeing the other furniture in the room and the price of genuine mahogany.

Sipo is about the same price as walnut maple cherry. Given the dimensions, prices go way up for mahogany. Sipo is related to mahogany and almost indistinguishable quartersawn and stained. It is much heavier, denser, and stronger than the birch plywood shelves I have on my existing rack. It is also stiffer. I suspect it will sound better than the birch plywood rack. But the rack is really they’re only as a support mechanism for the steel plates which directly affect the sonics.

The top shelf will support 420 pounds of gear and steel plates. Each of the other shelves will support 200 pounds. The rack itself will weigh over 200 pounds. My guess is the total rack plus components will be around 1100 pounds.

It will be very functional, and should fit right into the aesthetics of the room. There is also a lot of design behind it based on my past experiments that will benefit the sonics.

 

[tima]

I started hunting for a pair of ML2.0 amps but could never find them (and research seemed to indicate that the ML2.1 and ML2.2 weren't as good).

That's interesting Ian. Could you elaborate, please about subsequent updates being not as good as the original ML2?

 

[christoph]

I am very happy to be the newest member with Lamm gear. I must say that my wonderful Magico Q3s never sounded better than when driven by the Lamm M1.1 in the all Lamm chain. I enjoyed that combination for several weeks when waiting for the Vitavox to arrive. That M1.1 is a fantastic hybrid Class A amplifier.

Thank you Peter for answering this question (that I wantet to ask you for quite some time but didn't get around to ) and that even without being asked formally

I thought to myself that the Lamm M1.x must sound more to (y)our taste on your Magicos than the Pass and now you confirmed that.
This would have been a logical (first) step for me but you went the whole nine yards in one go, congrats for that

Btw. when I saw and read about your first encounter with the Vitavox at DDK's I immediately thought "why doesn't he go for the Vitavoxes for his imo perfectly suitable room for cornerhorns"

 

[tima]

Btw. when I saw and read about your first encounter with the Vitavox at DDK's I immediately thought "why doesn't he go for the Vitavoxes for his imo perfectly suitable room for cornerhorns"

I had the same idea, but errantly thought there was only one of them. Visually they are gorgeous and well suited to Peter's living room. I can also see them in a mid-westerna Wright-style setting.

 

[spiritofmusic]

They've gotta have some of the best WAF ever.
"Hi honey, do you fancy coffins out into the room dominating things? Or do you like these artisanal, crafted pieces of furniture that literally can disappear tucked in the corners?"

 

[morricab]

Vitavox CN-191 (Late 50s)
(arrived 4/17/21)​

I first heard these speakers during my visit to Utah at the end of January 2021. They were set up in the front corner’s of David’s smaller demo room. I had never heard corner horn speakers before. The presentation in Utah was problematic because of his room’s dimensions and construction.

One morning when David was upstairs, I started to listen to the Vitavox speakers alone and decided to slide them out into the room, away from the corners. There is a good zone about six feet out from the front wall, near where his JBL speakers were set up. I pushed the JBLs out to the sides, and brought the corner horns there. Bass extension suffered, but I could clearly hear the potential from these speakers. In some ways, they sounded very much like his large Siemann Bionor speakers. I was very intrigued.

Two months later, after hearing the full Lamm chain, and especially the ML2s, in my own system, I asked David to send me his Vitavox speakers. These are rather large and weigh 200 lbs. This is a pair of original series 2 speakers made in England in the late 1950s. They have walnut veneer cabinets with lovely detailing. They are absolutely beautiful. The speakers are 105 dB efficient and are a 16 ohm load. There is a horn for the middle and upper frequencies and a 15” paper cone driver loaded by a folded horn. The corners and walls of the room are coupled to the cabinet and used to extend the low frequency response into the room. The listener is basically sitting in the throat of the low frequency horn. Like the Micro Seiki, these speakers are incredibly rare, and in excellent condition.

I heard a bit of the magic from the Vitavox in Utah, and decided that these would be the final piece of my new system, assuming they would work in my room. David designed two shipping crates and hired a carpenter to build them for him.

Three weeks later, my friend Al M. and our audio buddy Alan helped me uncrate the speakers, slide them up the custom ramp I built, and move them into my listening room corners. What a day that was!

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Hi Peter, Well Done!!! Welcome to the SET/Horn way of listening! Is the horn on those Vitavoxes an S2 driver? THat is one great driver if so. Congrats!

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter, Well Done!!! Welcome to the SET/Horn way of listening! Is the horn on those Vitavoxes an S2 driver? THat is one great driver if so. Congrats!

Thank you Brad. The SET/Horn presentation is indeed different. Yes, I have the highly regarded S2 compression driver. The woofer is a 15" paper cone Vitavox.

 

[jeff1225]

Thank you Peter for answering this question (that I wantet to ask you for quite some time but didn't get around to ) and that even without being asked formally

I thought to myself that the Lamm M1.x must sound more to (y)our taste on your Magicos than the Pass and now you confirmed that.
This would have been a logical (first) step for me but you went the whole nine yards in one go, congrats for that

Btw. when I saw and read about your first encounter with the Vitavox at DDK's I immediately thought "why doesn't he go for the Vitavoxes for his imo perfectly suitable room for cornerhorns"

Peter took a very logical approach to evaluating the Lamm products. First step was the phono shoot out in the all Pass system. Second was the all Lamm system on his Magico's. All of this happened over a few weeks. I don't think I would have had the patience!

When I heard my first all Lamm system powering vintage Tannoy speakers, I had to have Lamm.

 

[PeterA]

I had the same idea, but errantly thought there was only one of them. Visually they are gorgeous and well suited to Peter's living room. I can also see them in a mid-westerna Wright-style setting.

Tim, I grew up in the Mid West and studied Frank Lloyd Wright in school. I saw some of his drawings for a house design for Ayn Rand which is little discussed. There was some speculation about us students who read "The Fountainhead", that Frank was living up to his reputation with the ladies. Howard Roark was clearly a reference to him, or so the character seemed to us at the time.

Take me to Falling Water any time. I once visited and was struck by how small the rooms and low the ceilings actually are. He was a short man. He played with and eventually eliminated solid corners in many of his buildings. That might present an issue for these corner horns. He wrote that one should never build a house on the top of a hill: it ruins the view and the beauty of the hill. As lovely as these speakers are, I would not want them placed into one of his corner windows obstructing a gorgeous view.

A bit off topic, but I could see these speakers too in one of Louis Kahn's building. Just ahead of Wright, he is my favorite American architect. He joined the Yale staff in 1947 a year before the first Vitavoxs were being made. A few years later he designed the iconic Yale University Art Gallery. He too eliminated the corners and fittingly, these speakers don't have solid corners either. I would love to see these walnut speakers in one of his concrete interiors, though they were likely designed for woody, clubby, library-type British interiors.

 

[morricab]

Wilson has moved from Focal ( fiberglass composite ) bass drivers to all paper in their big speaker line up .
But for the real low bottom end " impact " paper doesnt cut it ime.
I dont think the subsonics have paper in them i d have to check it .

Ps come to think of it paper cones ( made of wood pulp ) and wooden cabinets are a large part of speakers .
I use HPL ( paper sheets drenched in phenolic resin ) kharma uses it as well in their exquisite series.
Music and paper/wood are entangled .

I love the paper mid/bass drivers on my Odeon La Bohemes...funny enough they are from Focal (1980s vintage) before they moved to more "modern" materials. I also love the paper mid/bass Supravox drivers on my DIY two-way horn setup. Paper to me sounds better...

 

[morricab]

Peter took a very logical approach to evaluating the Lamm products. First step was the phono shoot out in the all Pass system. Second was the all Lamm system on his Magico's. All of this happened over a few weeks. I don't think I would have had the patience!

When I heard my first all Lamm system powering vintage Tannoy speakers, I had to have Lamm.

Did you go back to your Lamms or did you stick with the First Watt SIT-3?

 

[PeterA]

Peter took a very logical approach to evaluating the Lamm products. First step was the phono shoot out in the all Pass system. Second was the all Lamm system on his Magico's. All of this happened over a few weeks. I don't think I would have had the patience!

When I heard my first all Lamm system powering vintage Tannoy speakers, I had to have Lamm.

Jeff, that is the sequence I followed, though I think there was some rational behind it driven by David. He sent that Lamm phono with the turntable. When I heard what it did in my system, we then discussed expanding into Lamm. David told me that if the destination is high efficiency horns, then the ML2 SET was the amp to own, but he realized that with the Magicos I would need the power of the M1, so he sent both amplifiers in that second shipment. The M1 was a loaner for however long it took for me to admit the truth. We both knew, perhaps David before I, that I had already been hooked in Utah. I had told David that I needed to hear it again in my own system before I could make the commitment. He must have quietly smiled knowing already the eventual outcome.

Two non WBF friends heard the M1s on the Magicos. Both of them are musicians (drums and bass). One had heard the full Pass chain the week before, and the then the full Lamm chain the following week. The other directly compared the Pass phono/pre to the Lamm phono/pre feeding the M1/Magico the same day. Each friend heard instantly the differences I had been hearing for a week. They described in very simple, non audiophile terms, the differences. The language was refreshing and confirmed what I had already decided.

There is no substitute for actually hearing this stuff in one's own setting before committing. I was fortunate because David was willing to take it all back if I were not completely satisfied. He knows there are others who have expressed interest in it all.

Here is a photo of the Magico Q3 with the Lamm M1 combination that we used for these comparisons. We had just removed the massive Pass XA 160.5s from the room. Only the two phono stages benefitted from placement on the steel plates.

 

[PeterA]

Here is an image of the steel plates and temporary mobile platforms for the gear while the permanent rack is being made. It is truly surprising how much of a difference equipment supports can make. Past solutions in my system tended to over dampen the sound. The key seems to be to tune the supports so that the resulting sound is balanced, in other words, the supports must "do no harm". It is a very difficult thing to get right and very hard to make comparisons between competing products. I have opted for a DIY alternative allowing for much experimentation. It also allows me to allocate resources toward the fundamental gear.

 

[morricab]

Thank you Brad. The SET/Horn presentation is indeed different. Yes, I have the highly regarded S2 compression driver. The woofer is a 15" paper cone Vitavox.

I have read that some of the Lamm gear has a somewhat "dark" character...does that also apply to the ML2 but it doesn't matter or is that just for some other models (Lamm ML1 was often described this way). What is your impression on the Vitavox? Also, what is the crossover frequency from the woofer to the horn?

 

[PeterA]

Did you go back to your Lamms or did you stick with the First Watt SIT-3?

Great question for Jeffrey_T. I have an old Pass Aleph 3, 30 watt single ended Class A stereo amp from the early 90s. That amp got me started in High End. I may one day hook it up to the Vitavoxs for fun.

 

[PeterA]

I have read that some of the Lamm gear has a somewhat "dark" character...does that also apply to the ML2 but it doesn't matter or is that just for some other models (Lamm ML1 was often described this way). What is your impression on the Vitavox? Also, what is the crossover frequency from the woofer to the horn?

I think the crossover frequency from woofer to horn is 500 Hz, though @ddk could confirm. I have heard the ML1 in Jeffrey_T's system. I love the sound of his system and it did not seem dark to me at all. @MadFloyd owned some Lamm gear briefly and I think he found it a bit dark sounding, but that may well have been the pairing with his system at the time. I do not think he found my system dark sounding with the Lamm gear. I do not either.

I wonder if what one considers "dark" is simply because it is not as "bright" as some other gear. Thinking back to what I have heard over the hears in my system and in others, I find the Lamm more neutral now, and much other gear, somewhat "bright" on reflection. I have also heard a few tube components that do sound somewhat dark to me, but I have not heard them in my own system.

 

[MadFloyd]

That's interesting Ian. Could you elaborate, please about subsequent updates being not as good as the original ML2?

This is based on what I heard from an owner and research I did at the time. I read long forum threads from Lamm fans that discussed how the subsequent versions didn’t sound as good. Some more knowledgeable than me could probably shed more light in the situation.

My guess is that a part supply problem forced the later versions but of course that’s just a guess.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thank you Brad. The SET/Horn presentation is indeed different. Yes, I have the highly regarded S2 compression driver. The woofer is a 15" paper cone Vitavox.

Yep you should have the original S2 and the AK151 - both fab drivers and used in the Vox Olympian by the way....

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Also interestingly is that there is fall off cliff response on the S2 @ 16khz and I bet you don’t feel you are missing anything in the treble for that being the case. Kind of makes the whole 30-40khz thing seem pointless in some ways.

 

[pcosta]

Here is an image of the steel plates and temporary mobile platforms for the gear while the permanent rack is being made. It is truly surprising how much of a difference equipment supports can make. Past solutions in my system tended to over dampen the sound. The key seems to be to tune the supports so that the resulting sound is balanced, in other words, the supports must "do no harm". It is a very difficult thing to get right and very hard to make comparisons between competing products. I have opted for a DIY alternative allowing for much experimentation. It also allows me to allocate resources toward the fundamental gear.

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I see power tools there. Are you doing some stainless polishing? The stainless platforms under your Micro Seiki look fantastic.