Natural Sound

[tima]

This is based on what I heard from an owner and research I did at the time. I read long forum threads from Lamm fans that discussed how the subsequent versions didn’t sound as good. Some more knowledgeable than me could probably shed more light in the situation.

My guess is that a part supply problem forced the later versions but of course that’s just a guess.

Thanks for the follow-up, Ian. There certainly were parts changes across the three versions. My sense is that Vladimir would not make a change unless he believed it was a change for the better. Of course people's take on sonics are their own.

Here's my understanding:

The original ML2 came out in 1999.

The ML2.1 update (circa 2004) included a modified custom built transformer (probably Plitron), a higher quality PVC board, and an upgraded power transformer to accommodate 230V.

A perhaps more significant change came to the ML2.2 version (2012). It too included a new PVC board, a new power transformer and 3 additional chokes in the power supply. The biggest change was modification to use the input stage from Lamm's top-of-the-line ML3 Signature. You might find it interesting that R.Harley reviewed the ML2.2 with the Magico Q7!

All three iterations of the ML2 use the same tube set.

 

[christoph]

I think they are gorgeous, up there with the Hartsfields in looks - at least to me. I found them evocative of some of Wright's interiors, hence the tangent. A modern steel and glass interior - even with a great view - does not, imo, suit them.

Funny, I thought those Vitavoxes would even make a very nice contrast in a ultramodern concrete and glass environment

On another note to @ddk and @Audiophile Bill and @carolus
Do you think it would be possible to "convert" my Living Voice Air Scout into a "Franken-Corner Air Scout" by mating the upper horn part with the corner enclosure and the Vitavox woofer?

Sorry Peter for asking this slightly OT question here in your thread but I think it shouldn't be too OT after all

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Funny, I thought those Vitavoxes would even make a very nice contrast in a ultramodern concrete and glass environment

On another note to @ddk and @Audiophile Bill and @carolus
Do you think it would be possible to "convert" my Living Voice Air Scout into a "Franken-Corner Air Scout" by mating the upper horn part with the corner enclosure and the Vitavox woofer?

Sorry Peter for asking this slightly OT question here in your thread but I think it shouldn't be too OT after all

Morning Chris,

Hope you are well. I am checking if I understand your proposal - you want to remove the upper radial horn out the Scout and place it on a new corner loaded Klipschorn type enclosure? If you wanted to do this, it is possible but probably not financially sensible imho. You can get the Klipschorn type cabinets in Europe from LMH - http://lm-h.de/
You would probably save money by selling the Scouts in nice condition as they are rather than dismantling.

If I were in your boat and you wanted a project with the Scouts, I would add a horn loaded sub bass channel to them so you have a mini Frankenstein Olympian 4 chassis thing assuming you have space to do so. Or just one horn loaded sub bass channel placed centrally.

 

[Frenchrooster]

For every high sensitivity horn speaker amplifier question, my answer always is Viva Aurora, Absolare SET and Lamm SET.

I feel the « contrary « works too, because I heard Lamm electronics driving Kharma and Focal speakers with wonderful results ( with the 18w Lamm tubes) . Apparently Lamm can drive high efficiency speakers and normal efficiency too, which is not a common reality for other amps in the market.
IMO

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, as someone who loves a good irony in life, it's, ahem, highly ironic that after a long period of you obsessing over spkrs toe in, position in the room, you now have spkrs that demand one solitary install position...up against the wall, right in the corners. One choice, sorted.
Leaves you just one variable, seating distance.

 

[KeithR]

Keith, do you consider Steve Williams' Wilson speakers to be "bright"? He has a full Lamm chain driving them. Have you heard his system? I ask because my friend @ack does not like anything "dark" sounding and he was very impressed with the sound of Steve's system.

Vladimir himself designed your ML2s on Wilson Maxx - which yes, were bright. As were the Watt Puppy 6 and 7s back then that were often used at shows with Lamm. I'm just saying the pairing worked well for those who liked Wilsons at the time as the Lamm took the edge off the tweeter. To me, amp/speaker synergy is everything. I've heard great amps sound awful on my YGs.

I've heard Steve's Alexandra S2 system several times, both in Danville and Orange County (although its been a few years). I wouldn't say it's bright at all despite the titanium Focal tweeter. I didn't feel it had enough power in his very large Danville room though on the 18 watt Lamms. Of course now he uses the GM70 versions.

I also thought Lamm was a good match on Jeff's JBL horn speakers...again, as the synergy with that horn works well. So whether you consider the amp "dark" or not doesn't really matter as I look at the package as a whole.

 

[ddk]

Funny, I thought those Vitavoxes would even make a very nice contrast in a ultramodern concrete and glass environment

On another note to @ddk and @Audiophile Bill and @carolus
Do you think it would be possible to "convert" my Living Voice Air Scout into a "Franken-Corner Air Scout" by mating the upper horn part with the corner enclosure and the Vitavox woofer?

Sorry Peter for asking this slightly OT question here in your thread but I think it shouldn't be too OT after all

Are you asking if you can mate a corner horn bass cabinet with upper section of your Air Scout? It’s doable if you can find a proper donor box. The catch is the Air Scouts horns which are horrible, thin and ringing you’re better off replacing them with original Vitavox ones as a first upgrade to your speakers.

david

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have always believed that the Lamm electronics chain somehow "tames" the metal dome tweet in Wilson loudspeakers.

 

[christoph]

Are you asking if you can mate a corner horn bass cabinet with upper section of your Air Scout? It’s doable if you can find a proper donor box. The catch is the Air Scouts horns which are horrible, thin and ringing you’re better off replacing them with original Vitavox ones as a first upgrade to your speakers.

david

Are there maybe different versions of the Air Scout horns?

Because mine really don't show this phenomenon...
If I knock on the Aluminum horn, it sounds everything but thin and ringing but iIrc the horns in my Air Scout are tamed with sand.
Can that be?

 

[christoph]

Morning Chris,

Hope you are well. I am checking if I understand your proposal - you want to remove the upper radial horn out the Scout and place it on a new corner loaded Klipschorn type enclosure? If you wanted to do this, it is possible but probably not financially sensible imho. You can get the Klipschorn type cabinets in Europe from LMH - http://lm-h.de/
You would probably save money by selling the Scouts in nice condition as they are rather than dismantling.

If I were in your boat and you wanted a project with the Scouts, I would add a horn loaded sub bass channel to them so you have a mini Frankenstein Olympian 4 chassis thing assuming you have space to do so. Or just one horn loaded sub bass channel placed centrally.

Thanks, all good here. I hope you are as well.
A Franken-Olympian light sounds VERY interesting
What horn subs would you suggest?

 

[ddk]

Vladimir himself designed your ML2s on Wilson Maxx - which yes, were bright. As were the Watt Puppy 6 and 7s back then that were often used at shows with Lamm. I'm just saying the pairing worked well for those who liked Wilsons at the time as the Lamm took the edge off the tweeter. To me, amp/speaker synergy is everything. I've heard great amps sound awful on my YGs.

I've heard Steve's Alexandra S2 system several times, both in Danville and Orange County (although its been a few years). I wouldn't say it's bright at all despite the titanium Focal tweeter. I didn't feel it had enough power in his very large Danville room though on the 18 watt Lamms. Of course now he uses the GM70 versions.

I also thought Lamm was a good match on Jeff's JBL horn speakers...again, as the synergy with that horn works well. So whether you consider the amp "dark" or not doesn't really matter as I look at the package as a whole.

Not sure where you get your information from Keith but it’s all wrong, Maxx wasn’t even a speaker in Wilson’s line when ML2 was designed back in Russia and Vladimir never designed any of his electronics based on charachter of any speaker his designs are based on his EAR model. If you ever visited Lamm back then you’ll find a pair of Kharma Audiocritiques in the listening space and not a single Wilson speaker anywhere in the building.

No argument about Lamm electronics making Wilsons sing as they do with any other speaker. I owned Watt Puppys and the X1 before I ever knew anything about Lamm, they only sounded harsh with certain popular ss electronics of the 90’s never with any of the tube gear we used at the time. Also Wilson was a successful international brand long before Vladimir made it to the US, I guess people loved harsh sounding speakers!

david

 

[ddk]

Are there maybe different versions of the Air Scout horns?

Because mine really don't show this phenomenon...
If I knock on the Aluminum horn, it sounds everything but thin and ringing but iIrc the horns in my Air Scout are tamed with sand.
Can that be?

They could be sand dampened, I know about the horns because I bought a pair out of curiosity but I don’t know your speakers.

david

 

[ddk]

I have always believed that the Lamm electronics chain somehow "tames" the metal dome tweet in Wilson loudspeakers.

Of course! Lamm electronics sound great and do a lot more than just taming tweeters. IME Wilsons got a bad rap because of some matings with harsh ss electronics. Both Puppy and Grand Slamm were extremely popular speakers, they wouldn’t have been if they sounded as harsh as claimed with everything.

david

 

[stretchneck]

Interesting that your seating position is very different to traditional recommendations, is that because of the horns?

 

[PeterA]

Interesting that your seating position is very different to traditional recommendations, is that because of the horns?

Hello Strechneck, Are you addressing me? If so, I don't quite follow. What is so different about my seating position compared to traditional recommendations? I have a small room, and I need some distance for drivers to integrate, but also this is where it seems to sound best.

My current seat happens to be in the same location as when I had my former speakers. It was determined by measurements at sub 300 hZ for smoothest bass response and by listening. Jim Smith and I found the location that works best in my room and we did this before positioning the speakers. It has nothing to do with horns, though I have moved around the room to see if the sound improves, and my initial opinion is that the listening seat will remain where it is.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thanks, all good here. I hope you are as well.
A Franken-Olympian light sounds VERY interesting
What horn subs would you suggest?

Are you okay with a a table saw or tracksaw and basic joinery? If so you could add one or 2 Jensen Imperials with double 15s used as this sub channel. Beware that will shake the guts out of you lol.

Alternative - Bill Fitzmaurice Tuba - various models.

Super spendy (and lazy choice - buy a Pulse from Tune Audio.

 

[morricab]

I have always believed that the Lamm electronics chain somehow "tames" the metal dome tweet in Wilson loudspeakers.

Yeah, I don't need that "taming" ...my tweeters sound good

 

[morricab]

Vladimir himself designed your ML2s on Wilson Maxx - which yes, were bright. As were the Watt Puppy 6 and 7s back then that were often used at shows with Lamm. I'm just saying the pairing worked well for those who liked Wilsons at the time as the Lamm took the edge off the tweeter. To me, amp/speaker synergy is everything. I've heard great amps sound awful on my YGs.

I've heard Steve's Alexandra S2 system several times, both in Danville and Orange County (although its been a few years). I wouldn't say it's bright at all despite the titanium Focal tweeter. I didn't feel it had enough power in his very large Danville room though on the 18 watt Lamms. Of course now he uses the GM70 versions.

I also thought Lamm was a good match on Jeff's JBL horn speakers...again, as the synergy with that horn works well. So whether you consider the amp "dark" or not doesn't really matter as I look at the package as a whole.

I am thinking about how it might work in my systems, which are not bright to begin with.

 

[jeff1225]

Yeah, I don't need that "taming" ...my tweeters sound good

I think tubes in general tame the metal dome tweeter used in the older Wilsons, I don't think Lamm is special in that regard.

 

[Legolas]

I think tubes in general tame the metal dome tweeter used in the older Wilsons, I don't think Lamm is special in that regard.

Tubes may not be taming, rather not adding haze and switching noise as in some SS Class A/B designs? I say some...