Agree with you guys. I would be embarrassed to have written what he did lol. Clearly shows lack of experience. Yes some SET might be syrup but others can be complete opposite bordering on aggressive. Just not helpful when people say these things and the wider audiophile world accept it blindly.
Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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Agree with you guys. I would be embarrassed to have written what he did lol. Clearly shows lack of experience. Yes some SET might be syrup but others can be complete opposite bordering on aggressive. Just not helpful when people say these things and the wider audiophile world accept it blindly.
It is so counter the virtues of properly matched SET/speaker combinations. This kind of mythology definitely comes out of a lack of proper experience. I do also see it (as Tim suggests possibly) as an angle brought in to create some point of interest or impact in the writing.
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Thank you Tim for referencing this review. There is that pesky word “natural” again all the way back from 2013. Harley and JV each wrote interesting reviews of this amplifier or the original version. As I get to know the system, what I find particularly special is that the electronics and frankly, no aspect of the system, draws attention to itself. I am finding that the various components are particularly well matched.
There is very little to say about the specific sound of this new system. It disappears in a way that I have not heard before except from the systems in Utah. I just lack the experience with SETs that others clearly have. The listening is now much more about the music. The system is simply a conduit allowing the listener to get there. From reading some of the recent posts, it seems others have this same experience with SET and properly matched speakers.
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well, don't try others or you might find that Lamm isn't the end of the road...
well, don't try others or you might find that Lamm isn't the end of the road...
Brad, that’s a good one. There will always be people with more experience and knowledge than I have. And I know there are other options and different tastes and preferences. To hear alternatives, one must first have the desire. I am just starting to get comfortable and settled.
Hello Rando, I am sure I will get around to sharing some videos of this new system. I’ve just been too busy listening to my records, writing the beginning of this thread, and handling the logistics of selling my old system.
Some of us find such videos useful. I reserved two blank posts at the beginning of the thread for the insertion of videos.
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Yes, exactly - if there is a 'purpose' to the electronics it is to get out of the way of the music - just as the physical gear bears no distracting ornamentation, simple, black and functional.
Very true - and they are bandied about in jousts of words.
Like it or not, sterotype or not, true or not, I think Harley's view of "the typical SET signature" is out there for some and not unique to him. When there are disagreements about descriptions of amps or speakers it's typical to hear talk of one or the other being mis-matched and that is the response we got here - which is not to say there's no truth there.
On the other hand, forget "stereotyping" or not having heard the right combination. Harely is using 'SET' as a foil to characterize the ML2.2. His description is, imo, true independently of his views on SET. Consider it as a writer's device - take the word SET out of what he wrote and ask if what he wrote is expository.
Perhaps we can gather from the @PeterA journey that Micro + SET + K horn is an ultimate but I suspect it also includes the phenomena of 'sometimes a great thing is built' and this stands the test of time.
While pretty much all the Micro decks are good it's the top dogs that they really nailed it, right? So maybe the 8000 is just one of those 'moments in time' of greatness. Doesn't mean belt drive is best. Just this one was awesome.
Vitavox made a great speaker. 60+ years on still true. ( Close to 100 years for the early WE and RCA efforts ). Does this mean old is good? Nope. 'These' are good.
Lamm is making good electronics. Does this mean all SET's are good? Nope...
For me, watching this unfold is an example of a curator ( ddk ) assembling a collection of 'high points' that also work together superbly. The time he took to learn all of this is the real value.
Anyways my 2c...
Peter,
Congratulations on the new set up. It is a sight to behold especially the new corner horns. I would love to have that kind of system. It speaks to me of simplicity, naturalness, and with a certain delicate elegance that is missing from many over complicated systems nowadays. I have a room that is 16x20ft that needs a system and also needs speakers positioned in corners and your setup has encouraged me to look further into vintage horns.
Congratulations on the new set up. It is a sight to behold especially the new corner horns. I would love to have that kind of system. It speaks to me of simplicity, naturalness, and with a certain delicate elegance that is missing from many over complicated systems nowadays. I have a room that is 16x20ft that needs a system and also needs speakers positioned in corners and your setup has encouraged me to look further into vintage horns.
This is shocking. Are you saying a SET amp that can't drive a speaker properly (you acknowledge the ML3 is a poor pairing with the Magico) can play chamber and vocals? You cannot hear lack of drive on chamber and vocals, you can only hear it on large orchestra, rock, etc?
I enjoyed reading about your experience thanks for taking the time to share. I had a similar experiende where I had my main system composed of huge solid state amps, big Salk speakers, elaborate, complicated digital front end and I would blast it at concerts levels and love it. BUT when people came over I was so excited to show them my desktop system. Single drive fostex speakers with a diy bottle head set amp. It was beautiful and engaging. I explained this on a post and asked what I could upgrade to my main system. You know the responses-- buy this, change that, do this do that... one guy said sell everything and start over and pointed out the strengths of my simple desktop system and suggested to try for that with my main system. At first I resisted but soon after I started down a path of big speakers and set amps.
AND your sharing has helped me today... as I'm sitting and flipping records and switching out speakers...today Rethm vs Altecs. I keep asking what is more "natural" sounding. I tell you... a couple of watts coming through the altec horn playing a mono jazz record.... I'm not sure if its right, or even natural but its beautiful, magical.
I also tried removing some of my room treatments on my front wall following your lead. I didn't feel like it helped all that much at first listen but I tried and will likely try again. SO thanks again for sharing.
AND your sharing has helped me today... as I'm sitting and flipping records and switching out speakers...today Rethm vs Altecs. I keep asking what is more "natural" sounding. I tell you... a couple of watts coming through the altec horn playing a mono jazz record.... I'm not sure if its right, or even natural but its beautiful, magical.
I also tried removing some of my room treatments on my front wall following your lead. I didn't feel like it helped all that much at first listen but I tried and will likely try again. SO thanks again for sharing.
I'm not sure I would classify someone's subjective assessment of the discernible degree of lack of drive of a SET amp, whilst apparently paired erroneously with certain speakers, whilst listening to chamber music or vocals vs large scale orchestral music as "shocking" given the state of world events, but may be that's just me...
I'm not sure I would classify someone's subjective assessment of the discernible degree of lack of drive of a SET amp, whilst apparently paired erroneously with certain speakers, whilst listening to chamber music or vocals vs large scale orchestral music as "shocking" given the state of world events, but may be that's just me...
The statement is that an amp that cannot play orchestral due to incorrect match (lack of drive) can play chamber and vocals. That to me shows a compete lack of understanding of drive and poor ears sorry. This is not about loudness and volume. Drive is holding the note all the way, and this can be seen on even one instrument provided the recording has a dynamic range. On a badly matched amp the range and nuance and soar will just not be there
Sometimes when you are comparing two carts or two powerful amps, say VTL vs spectral on Wilson, you might see that one does not do separation on orchestral well, and is fine with chamber. This is quite different from the lack of drive experienced by running an underpowered amp - this will not be able to do a single instrument properly either
If I wanted to respond to you in the way you respond to others, I might say:
But I don't. ha ha.
Drive is an impression of momenturm, of moving forward. It's not about "holding the note". It's about the lack of overhang in getting off the note and on to the next one.
My take :
Proper drive of an amp is the amp being able to control those loudspeaker membranes like a whip
on all music .
Whether those mebranes have flat Fr , sufficient natural internal dampening / stiffness / good Magnet /coil motor system is another story .
I think of it as a car analogy .
Driving 60 miles per hour with a normal sedan or a ferrari is the same speed .
But the way they accerelate (and brake /decelerate ) is quit different, the " jump factor" .
On tubes i have not heard a better one then CAT .
Lamm may have more refinement when paired with the right speaker , at least thats the opinion what i read most.
So peter might have covered both with his new ( 60 years old, lol ) high eff horns .
But i could not say because i have never heard them.
Ps I must say those latest Arc 160 m s sound nice also at least on you tube .
I d love to hear a vid of peters system in due time .
And you can say what you want , but peter doesnt " cut corners "
Proper drive of an amp is the amp being able to control those loudspeaker membranes like a whip
on all music .
Whether those mebranes have flat Fr , sufficient natural internal dampening / stiffness / good Magnet /coil motor system is another story .
I think of it as a car analogy .
Driving 60 miles per hour with a normal sedan or a ferrari is the same speed .
But the way they accerelate (and brake /decelerate ) is quit different, the " jump factor" .
On tubes i have not heard a better one then CAT .
Lamm may have more refinement when paired with the right speaker , at least thats the opinion what i read most.
So peter might have covered both with his new ( 60 years old, lol ) high eff horns .
But i could not say because i have never heard them.
Ps I must say those latest Arc 160 m s sound nice also at least on you tube .
I d love to hear a vid of peters system in due time .
And you can say what you want
, but peter doesnt " cut corners "
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To clarify, by hold I mean if the note starts on a low and goes high, the amplifier will see it through the range, you will see the drop, the soar, rather than just a flat sound. So the ampifier holds on to it and drives it.
You might hear a note 'bend' in free form jazz or electronic synth. Otherwise 'a note', particulary a scored note, is a single frequency at a single dynamic. You do not see 'a note' marked as both p and f , low and high. Different frequencies, low and high, mean different notes.
Drive is not that complicated.
Drive is about momentum. In performance this is typically the conductor's domain. In reproduction a system's ability to represent momentum is, I suspect, a functiont of transducer reaction time.
If you want to talk about amplifiers and speakers - in the sense of 'can this amp drive those speakers?' - I think you need a different set of terminologies than 'holding on to a note'. How long does a speaker keep moving after the signal has stopped; how quickly can it move from rest to the next note/frequency. The ability of an amplifier to control a speaker. Amplifier rise time. Speaker sensitivity. Speaker impedance.
Edit: we're way topic for Peter's system thread. I will stop here with this.
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