Natural Sound

[PeterA]

Perhaps we can gather from the @PeterA journey that Micro + SET + K horn is an ultimate but I suspect it also includes the phenomena of 'sometimes a great thing is built' and this stands the test of time.

While pretty much all the Micro decks are good it's the top dogs that they really nailed it, right? So maybe the 8000 is just one of those 'moments in time' of greatness. Doesn't mean belt drive is best. Just this one was awesome.

Vitavox made a great speaker. 60+ years on still true. ( Close to 100 years for the early WE and RCA efforts ). Does this mean old is good? Nope. 'These' are good.

Lamm is making good electronics. Does this mean all SET's are good? Nope...

For me, watching this unfold is an example of a curator ( ddk ) assembling a collection of 'high points' that also work together superbly. The time he took to learn all of this is the real value.

Anyways my 2c...

Solypsa, I think you got it just right. I'm not sure about the specific combination of components in my new system being the "ultimate", but the idea that some stuff stands the test of time is absolutely correct. Vintage gear is certainly not for everyone, and I might not have gone this route were it not for the level of confidence I have in David's approach and his extremely high standard of service. Moving in this direction had low risk for me. When one realizes that he sold the first run of his AS2000 turntables before the first one was even produced, solely on his reputation, one can begin to understand what he is able to deliver.

As you so well point out, this system is not about the typology of the parts but rather the specific combination of components that David has collected and then assembled. His expertise is truly the value of what I bought and can here share with others. I will enjoy this system for years to come, with some minor experimentation with cartridges and perhaps wires, but for the most part it is a complete vision for Natural Sound. It is time to enjoy and pursue music.

 

[bonzo75]

What is amazing about your new speakers Peter is that the S2 compression driver and bass unit used in one of the most modern and expensive modern horn speakers on the planet, the Living Voice Vox Olympian. Not only is the Vitavox corner horn still relevant 60 years later, the individual drivers are still used to make statement speaker systems.

The vitavox S2 that is now made is different and currently made. Some might say the older was better. The S2 was put on the map by Romy, Kevin just made a horn combining it with tad drivers in a mish mash and put gold around it. The real brain wave was powering the whole set up with batteries to be used on Russian yachts

 

[andromedaaudio]

IMO the importance of speakers claiming that the tweeter goes up to 30 or 40 kHz is that they have pushed out the first resonant mode of the tweeter to that point so we don't hear the ringing. If we go back and look at measurements from speakers from the 90's and 2000's we typically see that resonance somewhere between 15k and 20k Hz. Both Thiel and WIlson speakers suffered from this as did almost all speakers that used a metal tweeter from that era. There have been some nice advancements in tweeter technology in the past 10 years.

In metal domes like the light berylium domes the first brake up is indeed much further up in freq.
Steve williams system doesnt seem to have any problems though .
If its not audible it aint a problem.
Luckily we dont listen to specs
Many people love natural sounding textile domes and theyre much cheaper then diamond and berylium .
I think this thread shows that listening to specs / marketing doesnt say it all.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

Congratulations on the new set up. It is a sight to behold especially the new corner horns. I would love to have that kind of system. It speaks to me of simplicity, naturalness, and with a certain delicate elegance that is missing from many over complicated systems nowadays. I have a room that is 16x20ft that needs a system and also needs speakers positioned in corners and your setup has encouraged me to look further into vintage horns.

Thank you Howie. I started this thread to share the information and present an alternative to the way I had been approaching the hobby for years. It is rewarding for me that others may be encouraged to learn about this. I love your line in bold. That's it in a nutshell. I wanted to get great sound while at the same time returning my room back into a comfortable living room in a traditional old house. This is about going back to a lifestyle of comfort and relaxation in a room that does not scream: High End Audio.

I would love to have a bigger room and your 16 X 20 sounds ideal for these type of speakers. Perhaps I am influenced by the fireplace in my particular room, but with your dimensions, I would not be at all surprised if the optimal sound comes from placing corner horns on the long wall. Then, as a starting point for the listening seat, at 10' out from the front wall, it would be at 2/3s the way into the room and right on axis with the horns. Sounds like a great pursuit.

 

[Kingrex]

Good write up Peter.

 

[Kingrex]

How do corner horns compare to say Center Console systems. Again, a lifestyle system. I'm kind of tired of stairing at a "stereo". I would like it to be more a piece of furniture in my living room.

 

[PeterA]

I enjoyed reading about your experience thanks for taking the time to share. I had a similar experiende where I had my main system composed of huge solid state amps, big Salk speakers, elaborate, complicated digital front end and I would blast it at concerts levels and love it. BUT when people came over I was so excited to show them my desktop system. Single drive fostex speakers with a diy bottle head set amp. It was beautiful and engaging. I explained this on a post and asked what I could upgrade to my main system. You know the responses-- buy this, change that, do this do that... one guy said sell everything and start over and pointed out the strengths of my simple desktop system and suggested to try for that with my main system. At first I resisted but soon after I started down a path of big speakers and set amps.

AND your sharing has helped me today... as I'm sitting and flipping records and switching out speakers...today Rethm vs Altecs. I keep asking what is more "natural" sounding. I tell you... a couple of watts coming through the altec horn playing a mono jazz record.... I'm not sure if its right, or even natural but its beautiful, magical.

I also tried removing some of my room treatments on my front wall following your lead. I didn't feel like it helped all that much at first listen but I tried and will likely try again. SO thanks again for sharing.

Guf, that is a great story. I love it. I found asking myself "Does this sound more natural", is really the only criteria one needs. It is so simple, elegant, and effective. Others find the term, and perhaps the concept, confusing, even meaningless, but I honestly don't think I could go back. David Karmeli boiled it down to its essence with that one question. If one gives it a chance, who knows where it will lead.

 

[howiebrou]

Thank you Howie. I started this thread to share the information and present an alternative to the way I had been approaching the hobby for years. It is rewarding for me that others may be encouraged to learn about this. I love your line in bold. That's it in a nutshell. I wanted to get great sound while at the same time returning my room back into a comfortable living room in a traditional old house. This is about going back to a lifestyle of comfort and relaxation in a room that does not scream: High End Audio.

I would love to have a bigger room and your 16 X 20 sounds ideal for these type of speakers. Perhaps I am influenced by the fireplace in my particular room, but with your dimensions, I would not be at all surprised if the optimal sound comes from placing corner horns on the long wall. Then, as a starting point for the listening seat, at 10' out from the front wall, it would be at 2/3s the way into the room and right on axis with the horns. Sounds like a great pursuit.

Don't tempt me!

 

[PeterA]

Don't tempt me!

You can reach David through the WBF private messaging system though I think I just sent him an email requesting the Micro Seiki and we went from there.

 

[jeff1225]

How do corner horns compare to say Center Console systems. Again, a lifestyle system. I'm kind of tired of stairing at a "stereo". I would like it to be more a piece of furniture in my living room.

I'm intrigued by all of the life style console systems from the 50's and 60's.

@ddk any thoughts on the JBL Paragon?

 

[ddk]

I'm intrigued by all of the life style console systems from the 50's and 60's.

@ddk any thoughts on the JBL Paragon?

Fantastic! Paragon and Metrogon are not console systems!

david

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Yes the cult of the super tweeter junkies. It’s quite common for people to stick a super tweeter on their speakers, not necessarily vintage either, 99.9% of them can’t hear for themselves and did it because they either saw or some random person recommended it. I’ve come across dozens of setups like that and not a single one sounded right or was implemented properly. All you get is some disjointed pssst pssst pssst. Both @Solypsa and @Carlos269 are correct in their posts.

david

exactly!

 

[Al M.]

In my view, there is a potential of confusion in the whole HF extension/natural sound debate, in that some may mistake treble extension for treble energy. What I hear in the concert hall is not a "flat treble to 20 kHz". In fact, usually concert halls have a more or less pronounced slope of HF roll-off. The same is the case in the large living room at Ayer Mansion in Boston where our Boston group of audiophiles has frequently visited chamber concerts. The acoustics there are somewhat dry and damped. Yet in all cases, the treble energy is unmistakable. In those concerts at Ayer Mansion this is often what we hear first, an incredible treble energy, which we all agree on. Likewise, Jordan Hall at New England Conservatory, with absolutely gorgeous acoustics in its wooden design, has a somewhat damped sound as evident on, for example, strings. Yet when high-pitched metallic percussion is struck, it rings out with a prominence, strength and clarity that exceeds what you mostly hear on home systems.

So it may well be that a system with limited HF extension can still have tremendous and lifelike HF energy that would be conducive to "natural sound". Related to that -- but not the same -- is treble "thickness". Treble that I hear live is never "thin", and often it is emphatically "thick". Something approaching proper treble thickness is more often heard from tube amps, even though some SS amps can excel in that as well. Spectral comes to my mind (yes, Spectral), whereas for example the treble from the Pass gear that Peter had until recently often suffered from some thinness, especially audible on (jazz) cymbals. The more upgraded and better the gear became, the less of an issue it was, but the problem never went away completely. By the way, the treble "thickness" from tube amps stands apart from the issue of premature HF roll-off that is associated with inferior output transformers in some tube amp designs. Properly designed transformers do enable nice, linear treble extension, while still allowing treble "thickness" from tubes to shine.

 

[MadFloyd]

I don't think treble thickness (what I'd refer to as body) has anything to do with high frequency extension but rather the character of the midrange.

Obviously you and I agree that metallic percussion seems to be very weak in playback systems. I'd be curious to hear how it sounds on Peter's new gear. I suspect it would be very rich.

 

[jeff1225]

Fantastic! Paragon and Metrogon are not console systems!

david

Yes this was a pivot just because they look like a console.

 

[morricab]

What is amazing about your new speakers Peter is that the S2 compression driver and bass unit used in one of the most modern and expensive modern horn speakers on the planet, the Living Voice Vox Olympian. Not only is the Vitavox corner horn still relevant 60 years later, the individual drivers are still used to make statement speaker systems.

The Living Voice is still my “win the lottery” speaker system of choice! They figured out how to integrate that super tweeter

 

[Solypsa]

I'm intrigued by all of the life style console systems from the 50's and 60's.

@ddk any thoughts on the JBL Paragon?

Ten years ago or so The Selby did a feature in Japan on a guy with pretty good taste including this console

Hideto Irikawa - Consultant and Business OwnerHideto Irikawa - Consultant and Business Owner

The Selby is in Your Place is Photographs and Paintings by Todd Selby of Creative People and Creative Spaces

theselby.com

 

[microstrip]

What is amazing about your new speakers Peter is that the S2 compression driver and bass unit used in one of the most modern and expensive modern horn speakers on the planet, the Living Voice Vox Olympian. Not only is the Vitavox corner horn still relevant 60 years later, the individual drivers are still used to make statement speaker systems

What are the differences between Peter models and those ones?

https://www.vitavoxhifi.co.uk/cproducts.php?page=cabinet_loudspeakers&expanddiv=msgs

 

[bonzo75]

In my view, there is a potential of confusion in the whole HF extension/natural sound debate, in that some may mistake treble extension for treble energy. What I hear in the concert hall is not a "flat treble to 20 kHz". In fact, usually concert halls have a more or less pronounced slope of HF roll-off. The same is the case in the large living room at Ayer Mansion in Boston where our Boston group of audiophiles has frequently visited chamber concerts. The acoustics there are somewhat dry and damped. Yet in all cases, the treble energy is unmistakable. In those concerts at Ayer Mansion this is often what we hear first, an incredible treble energy, which we all agree on. Likewise, Jordan Hall at New England Conservatory, with absolutely gorgeous acoustics in its wooden design, has a somewhat damped sound as evident on, for example, strings. Yet when high-pitched metallic percussion is struck, it rings out with a prominence, strength and clarity that exceeds what you mostly hear on home systems.

So it may well be that a system with limited HF extension can still have tremendous and lifelike HF energy that would be conducive to "natural sound". Related to that -- but not the same -- is treble "thickness". Treble that I hear live is never "thin", and often it is emphatically "thick". Something approaching proper treble thickness is more often heard from tube amps, even though some SS amps can excel in that as well. Spectral comes to my mind (yes, Spectral), whereas for example the treble from the Pass gear that Peter had until recently often suffered from some thinness, especially audible on (jazz) cymbals. The more upgraded and better the gear became, the less of an issue it was, but the problem never went away completely. By the way, the treble "thickness" from tube amps stands apart from the issue of premature HF roll-off that is associated with inferior output transformers in some tube amp designs. Properly designed transformers do enable nice, linear treble extension, while still allowing treble "thickness" from tubes to shine.

One does not need roll off for natural sound. Yes, some vintage speakers which have have roll off at 16khz are natural and some modern speakers with higher frequencies are not natural. However to conclude roll off is required for natural sound is just wrong. Yes, tannoys and altecs can be great and do have a slight roll off.

The point is that adding an extension just for the sake of extension with another driver (tweeters or super tweeters) can affect the natural sound by causing incoherence with the main driver.

 

[dan31]

What are the differences between Peter models and those ones?

https://www.vitavoxhifi.co.uk/cproducts.php?page=cabinet_loudspeakers&expanddiv=msgs

Nice to see these speakers are still produced.