Which horns have you heard or compared, and when did you hear the AS and the 927?
You miss the point that the older ones we use today are the survivors, proven time and time again the poor and mediocre ones have been lost.
Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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Which horns have you heard or compared, and when did you hear the AS and the 927?
You miss the point that the older ones we use today are the survivors, proven time and time again the poor and mediocre ones have been lost.
While I agree with this basic premise on why these old ones are good , it still doesn’t adequately explain why they can’t be accurately replicated.
It is not the same as making an exact copy of a Stradivarius, for example, where the precise staring materials (wood, glue, lacquer) are lost to us in the mists of time. A paper cone might be subject to this a bit as the exact paper makeup might no longer be known or available.
For the most part though we have metal, magnetic materials and particular geometries that can be exactly matched. I would argue that replicating the crossover with current materials could have a very significant effect...for better or worse. But if you can find vintage parts then you could build an exact replicate of that too.
We don't make things the same way today, the best surviving examples of vintage gear were often made in ways that are more expensive and time consuming vs today.
An example is the vacuum in NOS tubes is often more complete vs today, metals processed better, assembly by very skilled workers....
It's not that we CAN'T... it's that now we prioritize cost more, even on expensive things, often paying more these days is not justified by real quality. This goes for so many things, from our clothing to our furniture, to colognes and perfumes, to our electronics and speakers... all cheaper than they used to be in many ways.
An example is the vacuum in NOS tubes is often more complete vs today, metals processed better, assembly by very skilled workers....
It's not that we CAN'T... it's that now we prioritize cost more, even on expensive things, often paying more these days is not justified by real quality. This goes for so many things, from our clothing to our furniture, to colognes and perfumes, to our electronics and speakers... all cheaper than they used to be in many ways.
If also like to point out that the best vintage products were adapted to the consumer market. Altec, WE, Seimens, EMT, JBL, Tannoy, Vitavox, etc, were made for theatre/concert or studio applications.
The funny thing is try that now... only a few JBL things are ok, and not amazing.
David,
Do you realize that you are always referring just to a very few limited and specific components , adding "etc" - something that impedes any systematic analysis?
It is easily understood why we can't exactly duplicate the subjective performance of vintage - these products have a well defined sound signature, resulted from the sensitivity of their creators. In an hobby where changing a cable - something that is technically immeasurable in the sense that it reproduces and explains the effect - creates a night and day difference, we can't expect exact reproduction of anything. So you will always be a winner if the discussion centers only on copying vintage.
However, most people will simply tell that their designs based on classic vintage sound close or better than the original - and here we will have just individual opinions.
Ten years ago or so The Selby did a feature in Japan on a guy with pretty good taste including this console
Hideto Irikawa - Consultant and Business OwnerHideto Irikawa - Consultant and Business Owner
The Selby is in Your Place is Photographs and Paintings by Todd Selby of Creative People and Creative Spacestheselby.com
Solypsa, Selby has made some very interesting and cool choices, especially with those cars. I love the house setting. Thank you for sharing this link.
That is an interesting question, Rex. My experience is far too limited to be able to generalize is such a way and provide any meaningful thoughts. I will say that these corner horns, along with the table and electronics is delivering a level of natural resolution that I only one heard before, and that was in Utah. I think the corner horns simply address the challenge of presenting music in a small room in a different way than do conventional speakers pulled out from the front and side walls. The presentation is very different. I happen to prefer it to what I had. Others may not.
In terms of pretty and beautiful sound, there is certainly that, but it is naive to think it stops there. The sound is very realistic and convincing, with startling dynamics and timbral accuracy. Acoustic bass articulation, tone, weight, and impact is truly exceptional in my experience. But recall, that these horns did not perform to their potential in David's corners because of his room dimensions and materials. I think it is a mistake to start discussing these typologies in general terms. There are successful, even special, and less successful, even bad, examples of most every type of speaker.
Corner placement is not overcoming a limitation. It is part of the design, and it enhances performance for these designs. These Vitavoxs here in my system/room context do stand tall, but not as tall, as a great horn (like David's Seimanns) well placed in a room. It is a matter of degree.
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Peter,
the new system looks as if you have arrived in your sound heaven. Being a friend of the Micro Seiki units I came from the SX 8000 II to some other mods. David is your best advisor in this matter, so you are well advised listening to him. I have a kind of advanced Living Voice speaker which became my final tool. I like your photos, guessing you are in this hobby as well!? Ah yes, all these old men with the golden ears! Honestly, never understood why you liked the SME table that much. It is okay but now you are closer to Nirvana.
Hope you got good food by the cook David!?
Enjoy the music.
best
Eckart
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Thank you Eckart. I appreciate your comments. During my research into the Micro Seiki, I did come across your outstanding website and audio blog. You have written some wonderful articles, and I learned much. It seems there are pockets of people around devoted to and who understand the Micro tables.
I took up photography as my daughters grew and started playing sports. I have much to learn, but my particular interest is in sailing, skiing, and lacrosse action photography. I am considering getting a nice Nikon micro lens for audio photography. As my girls have grown up, photography is taking a back seat to my other interests, particularly sailing and audio. I like your audio photographs very much.
The SME table had a proud place in my system for nine years. As I continued to improve the system set up, the SME allowed me to hear the various improvements and I enjoyed it very much. Then, when I thought I had taken the system as far as it could go, I decided I needed to switch my main components. The SME now has a nice new home and will be enjoyed for many more years.
Agreed. We love classic commercial horns and bass drivers because they were designed before DSP and class D ampflication.
Hello Tim, I agree with the analogy of natural sounding audio systems and the better sounding orchestra halls. I think I wrote about that in the Utah visit thread when describing David's four systems and mentioning Chicago, Boston, and Vienna.
I would say that there are degrees of natural sound, but just as there are different natural sounding systems, there are different natural sounding halls. And with these differences, the important thing to recognize and appreciate is that some rise above the rest. We can tell ourselves that it is all opinion, but in rare cases, those opinions seem fairly universal, in, for example, the cases of Boston, and Vienna. It is also the case with certain speakers like the WE and Seimanns Bionor, David's Beyond turntables, and certain electronics. When there is general consensus about relative quality, that should tell us something. David has spent years learning and understanding these differences. We can look to him for guidance and then listen for ourselves.
You seem to have discovered what is special about Lamm electronics and Ching Cheng power cords. Those opinions are shared by many.
The basic difference between the JBL and the Vitavoxs is the presentation. They both are highly resolving and provide emotional and engaging listening experiences. I thought the Vitavox has just a tad more magic and emotion and they drew me in more. The JBL had a bit more "air" on more music, was more extended while the Vitavox had great "air" on some recordings, but not on others. I don't know, but I sense the JBL was designed more with measurements in mind while the Vitavox was designed by simply listening.
I could have happily bought either speaker, but in my particular room, with the goal of returning to a more traditional look and use of living room for entertainment and relaxation in an old house, the Vitavox was the more appropriate choice. In a dedicated, single purpose room, the JBL would be quite wonderful. They both sound natural, but they present music differently as do different concert halls.
That's a good point. Room placement is, well, about the room. Your room looks well suited for corner speakets. I have a large pass through on one side and a window on the other. I would obviously get a much different response in my space.
The last few pages have seen some discussion about high-frequency extension and treble "energy", which of course then brings up the question of the listener's auditory acuity in the treble ranges. KeithR and Ron are quite a bit younger than most of us and I suspect they might have pretty good hearing even in the 15k - 20kHz range, but how about those here in their 60's and '70's? Reference sources often state that most people over 50 have trouble hearing even 12kHz tones, and by 70 that may have fallen to 8-9 kHz. There is also some research indicating that frequencies around the steepest part of the slope of ones' high-frequency hearing loss will sound harsh and distorted; for those who have significant noise-induced hearing loss there may also be "notches" of loss in the 2,000 - 8,000 Hz range where that same phenomenon occurs. We can learn to compensate for these issues to some degree, but they don't go away; without some knowledge about one's own hearing this makes it very difficult to generalize about your own opinions and impressions with respect to others'. In any case, though, discussion about supertweeters whose response begins in the range where most of us already can't hear at all seems a bit disingenuous
Just more food for thought
Just more food for thought
... and before digital recordings and while developers still had real music, real instruments and real sounds as reference ...
Peter,
great hobbies! Learning is the most intelligent way to improve. Unfortunately we love it in the Western World just to show up instead of asking and learning. Enjoy your sportive life!
best
eckart
www.Audiocirc.com
great hobbies! Learning is the most intelligent way to improve. Unfortunately we love it in the Western World just to show up instead of asking and learning. Enjoy your sportive life!
best
eckart
www.Audiocirc.com
rbbert, agree! There is much more to hear over 12´ Hz!
best
eckart
audiocirc.com
best
eckart
Presence Improvement
You may know that we got the ability listening to higher tones using High and Super High Tweeters in our audio system. Usually we are told getting older we are loosing some frequencies. Being an ex…
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Peters speakers got me thinking. Last night I watched some really bad Youtube about horns. Either Steve G going on and on about I'm not sure what. Then the lets make static video of my stereo playing. I still don't get that. Then I ran into a guy talking about setting up horns. Instead of facing forward they are severely toed in crossing in front of the listening chair. In my room pretty much 45* like Peters corner horns. At first blush it is radically different sounding. And not in a bad way. The imaging is radically changed. But its clean and full. Less scattered reflections off the side walls. I think the images are more firmly landed. I need to listen further.
I thought the school of thought vis a vis crossing the left and right so you are listening off axis was to increase the late reflections from opposite walls. Seems like @Duke LeJeune would have some wisdom on that topic...
I don't know this guy was any expert but he was saying something as such. The rear wall reflection was off 2 walls in the back corner. And there is relatively no side wall reflection.
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