- Feb 4, 2019
I like it better with my horns crossing. The images are more stable and the details are more clear. Less reflected distortions. Thanks to Peter for getting me on this track.
IMHO you are comparing the incomparable trying to create an analogy - but no problem, many people who love systems that do not fit under your views of "natural" do the same to promote their preferences. We have many books and studies about the great concert halls and their characteristics - they are well understood.Hello Tim, I agree with the analogy of natural sounding audio systems and the better sounding orchestra halls. I think I wrote about that in the Utah visit thread when describing David's four systems and mentioning Chicago, Boston, and Vienna.
General consensus between a few people who share the same preferences of sound reproduction in stereo in very natural. Again IMHO nothing to relate with the preference of top concert halls.I would say that there are degrees of natural sound, but just as there are different natural sounding systems, there are different natural sounding halls. And with these differences, the important thing to recognize and appreciate is that some rise above the rest. We can tell ourselves that it is all opinion, but in rare cases, those opinions seem fairly universal, in, for example, the cases of Boston, and Vienna. It is also the case with certain speakers like the WE and Seimanns Bionor, David's Beyond turntables, and certain electronics. When there is general consensus about relative quality, that should tell us something. David has spent years learning and understanding these differences. We can look to him for guidance and then listen for ourselves.
You seem to have discovered what is special about Lamm electronics and Ching Cheng power cords. Those opinions are shared by many.
The basic difference between the JBL and the Vitavoxs is the presentation. They both are highly resolving and provide emotional and engaging listening experiences. I thought the Vitavox has just a tad more magic and emotion and they drew me in more. The JBL had a bit more "air" on more music, was more extended while the Vitavox had great "air" on some recordings, but not on others. I don't know, but I sense the JBL was designed more with measurements in mind while the Vitavox was designed by simply listening.
I could have happily bought either speaker, but in my particular room, with the goal of returning to a more traditional look and use of living room for entertainment and relaxation in an old house, the Vitavox was the more appropriate choice. In a dedicated, single purpose room, the JBL would be quite wonderful. They both sound natural, but they present music differently as do different concert halls.
To my thinking this statement fits in perfectly with the topic. Great halls are well understood yet not all that many are great. Of course there is the matter of cost but imho taking theory to the built object is not an easy task.We have many books and studies about the great concert halls and their characteristics - they are well understood.
I do believe toeing in a dipole close to the corner is very different to the kind of sound you get from a speaker designed for this particular location. Using the corner as part of the design, and thereby also minimizing room boundary issues that normal speakers incur seems like a advantage, not a problem. Electrostatics in corner position have always sounded thin to me, and too much toein will minimize you options for listening positions with a topology that already suffers from the "head in a vice " syndrome !IMHO you are comparing the incomparable trying to create an analogy - but no problem, many people who love systems that do not fit under your views of "natural" do the same to promote their preferences. We have many books and studies about the great concert halls and their characteristics - they are well understood.
General consensus between a few people who share the same preferences of sound reproduction in stereo in very natural. Again IMHO nothing to relate with the preference of top concert halls.
Thanks for this very interesting analysis of speaker differences. I also enjoy the Ching Cheng power cords with Lamm - unfortunately I never got any ML3 or LL1 original power cables, could not compare them.
When I listen to Soundlabs A1 PX's with some toe-in close to side walls - their only possible position in my room , as they are 3 feet wide - I get the type of corner-type sound reproduction you referred with plenty of depth. The XLF's give me a much wider music scene, with extending boundaries and better layering, that I enjoy more. None can be considered more "natural" than the other, although IMHO and preference the soundstage of the XLF remembers me more of my perception of real concerts.
Ok, that was what I was referring to as well...using the far wall to increase late reflections at the same time reducing near wall early reflectionsNear, Duke likes to avoid early reflections. The sound is still moving, but it hits somewhere else with a longer return path so it isn't smearing.
If your referring to my setup, I am nowhere near the back wall. Peters speakers in the corner are to what I see, angled 45* and crossing. I thought I would try a different setup.I do believe toeing in a dipole close to the corner is very different to the kind of sound you get from a speaker designed for this particular location. Using the corner as part of the design, and thereby also minimizing room boundary issues that normal speakers incur seems like a advantage, not a problem. Electrostatics in corner position have always sounded thin to me, and too much toein will minimize you options for listening positions with a topology that already suffers from the "head in a vice " syndrome !
Ok, that was what I was referring to as well...using the far wall to increase late reflections at the same time reducing near wall early reflections
Iirc Danley also has this approach...
Of course I do!David,
Do you realize that you are always referring just to a very few limited and specific components ,
That wasn't intentional but honestly I don't see the point to this type of systematic analysis. It's like reading a car magazine and trying to analyze and understand the difference between a Ferrari Daytona and a Tesla from 0-60 and quarter mile figures, tech and specs but you wont know anything about the experience without actually driving both cars. You also need some expertise to be able to push the cars to get to their essence. With the Tesla you just put your foot down and car goes weeeee for anyone, not so with the Lambos! The same is true with Peter's system, it has to be experienced and understood so we can discuss what matters, it's not in the specs and without the real experience communication is very limited and superficial.adding "etc" - something that impedes any systematic analysis?
It has nothing to do with winning, losing or exact reproduction of some sound, nor is it about vintage, it's about specific products with vintage ones among them. Intellectually a lot of things can be easily understood but only superficially, to truly understand something you have to touch it, properly experience it and to know it from the inside.It is easily understood why we can't exactly duplicate the subjective performance of vintage - these products have a well defined sound signature, resulted from the sensitivity of their creators. In an hobby where changing a cable - something that is technically immeasurable in the sense that it reproduces and explains the effect - creates a night and day difference, we can't expect exact reproduction of anything. So you will always be a winner if the discussion centers only on copying vintage.
It's not an a opinion it's a someone's basis for a product. With knowledge and experience one can judge the success or failure of the attempt.However, most people will simply tell that their designs based on classic vintage sound close or better than the original - and here we will have just individual opinions.
I will just note that the whole toe in discussion started because the orientation of your corner horns inspired one reader to "copy" their natural toe in angle with their floor standers and found the result a positive improvement. Great that your thread made someone else's system better, as is the goal of all this discussion, even when it meanders...Perhaps someone should start a separate thread about Micro’s Soundlab speakers and speaker placement and toe in. This is getting really off-topic. I now own corner horns whose placement is not meant to be adjustable.
Oh Lordy ! Lets's hope we have no Tesla owners on WBF ! You really kicked the beehive now David !
Good to know but I wasn't commenting on cars . Only getting a point across.I love my Tesla. I found it is very natural to drive. I won’t trade in my Tesla for any Ferrari unless it is a pure electric car.
I never owned or driven Ferrari before. But I have driven Porsche. Let’s say I enjoy driving electric cars more. I will never buy ICE cars in the future.
Pretty typical IME
Peter, in the early stages of this discussion there was building interest in the amount of work going into this shift. I was quite surprised at the amount of time and labor being expended to polish each steel plate.
In lieu of system videos, in home listening reports from other members, or a fresh batch of photos and accompanying detail... could you be drawn out far enough to explore the background labors that have gone unmentioned thus far or perhaps changes you might potentially explore which came about during your process leading up to generation of this new system thread.
Well Micro .. it was lazy wording but the question I wanted to ask was if the magicos presented that style of recording in a better light than the corner horns .... or not.Phil,
I am curious - can we know why are you asking about how "non-natural" recordings sound in a "natural" sounding system?
BTW, I also have a very large collection of ECM recordings - LP,'s CD's and files , but just for music and enjoyment, not for "life like" sound quality.
my emphasisJust for the bass in Peter's system, 3012-R the best and most natural bass of any tonearm, MS 8000mk2 one of the best quality bass of any turntable every made, Lamm phono and pre with ML2 that arguably has the most natural and realistic bass of all electronics, Vitavox corner horn also known for it's wonderful natural and realistic bass quality with my own personal contribution, Ching Cheng power cords! How many times do you think anyone's going to come across any of these components individually no less all together in one synergistic system that's properly setup?
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
|Julian (The Fixer)|
Website Build | Marketing Managersing