Natural Sound

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,626
5,435
1,278
E. England
Peter, I'd really be interested in your answer here. Every modern horn I've listened to has the tendency to push the stage fwds...certainly Cessaro Liszts and Animas do. AG absolutely do, so much so music can be in your chest or lap. I've heard this many times w Duos at Blue58, and Trios at a dealer.
Audiophile Bill's horns are the only ones that do the opposite...the stage is naturally layered, somewhat behind the spkrs. Despite absolutely falling in love w them, it was the only thing that gave me pause on fully engaging.
Interestingly I got way more used to that more distant stage on second visit, and then mentally recalled EVERY classical concert we've heard in a church or hall up here also has a soundstage further back.
Sure, sitting closer or further back changes the relative relations of things. But at no point is the music "projected" forwards.
Once I'd reconciled this, the final mental jigsaw piece of Bill's sound slotted into place, and to my mind I've never got as close to what I perceive to be natural sound than what I've heard with his creations.

I'm curious as to whether your experience with the VVs correlates with mine, how the Magicos were different, and whether you immediately adjusted to this. It did take me a second visit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

jeff1225

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2012
3,013
3,265
1,410
51
View attachment 77621

I have been listening to this LP for years. I often use it to confirm cartridge set up because of the harmonics of the two mandolins and their spatial relationship with and scale to the rest of the orchestra. ddk sent me one of his Technics EPC-205CMK3 cartridges a couple of days ago. I had heard about these and even read a little about them. I did hear one, or one similar, in David's system when I visited. It is the first moving magnet cartridge I have tried in my system.

Visible in the photo are the playing cards and the tiny allen wrench that I use to adjust the SME 3012R arm height. My new system seems to be so well matched and high in resolution that it is quite easy now to hear very subtle differences in cartridge adjustments. After 10-15 years of non use, this cartridge needs some time to break in and settle, but it is really starting to sound wonderful. In general, it is not quite as hyper and energetic as the vdH Colibris I have. The very leading edge is not as spotlit or pronounced, but, there is something about its overall balance and tone that just makes me want to relax and listen to music.

The cartridge seems well suited to this system, as one would expect knowing that David selected this very sample (out of nine he owns) for this particular system. This system is now a complete David Karmeli vision of Natural Sound. The Technics has a very beautiful tone. Everything seems in supreme balance. There is no spotlighting of anything. Dynamics are just a bit soft compared to the Colibris, but completely absent is the occasional aggression of the Colibris on close mic'd soprano or trumpet. Music is not pushed or forced out. It simply flows with great rhythm out of the speakers to fill the room. It is a more relaxed and calm sound. Scale, sense of space, expanding music and energy in the room, it is all there in a very natural presentation.

Nothing about this cartridge and system however sounds "vintage" or old fashioned. Rather, it lacks the "hifi" sounding artifacts so prevalent in the High End: highlighted details, black backgrounds, tight fast bass, pinpoint images, these are absent from my listening now. In their place, I hear huge amounts of natural resolution presented as a whole rather than as bits and pieces. Backgrounds are full of color. Acoustic bass and drums have hollow and resonating wooden bodies with textured vibrating string plucks, skins, and struck wooden sticks. Images are well proportioned with relative scale and they are not outlined or precise. Sound originates from areas that can be easily localized, but musicians and instruments are not so very clearly defined. The musicians are alive and breath, and sound surrounds the images, overlapping and spreading outward. The whole presentation is vibrant, alive and holistic.

This Vivaldi recording is very lovely. The battling mandolines go back and forth and pause for the rest of the orchestra. For years, there has always been something not quite right about their spatial relationship to each other. The left instrument was a bit lower and further back, the right one was a bit higher and more forward. I imagined that they should sound like they are side by side, spread out a bit at the front of the stage with the supporting instruments laid out behind and to the sides of them. Sadly, it just never quite sounded like I thought it should.

This afternoon, after I finished what I thought was a good job of fine tuning this new/old cartridge, I played this LP again. Laid out in front of me filling the entire front wall of my room, was a living breathing orchestra, extending back behind the front wall. The system disappeared, and the two mandolins appeared right in front of me, side by side, same height and distance from the front of the stage - just as I imagined it should sound for all these years. I was somewhat shocked. It was not a flaw in the recording as I had previously thought. It was the reproduction, the room layout, the cartridge set up, the system components, who knows? I was now hearing this favorite LP in an entirely new way with glorious string tone and harmonics filling the room.

I was left basking in the glorious swell of the orchestra and the two battling mandolines, back and forth, side by side, and then playing together in all their frenzy and chang ups. Their dialog was mesmerizing, so present were they in the room. The supporting strings grew in the background to fill the back of the stage. The clarity of the plucking, the beauty of the tone, the scale of the stage, the energy in the room. This is what Natural Sound is all about. David must be smiling to himself in Utah learning the system is starting to really come together.
And all of this from a $400 cartridge. One of the biggest rabbit holes of all time, but their is a monster thread on Audiogon about some of the best MM cartridges made. I've purchased several of them, finding the Signet TK-7 series my favorite. @PeterA you heard the Signet TK-7AE when you visited my house. Here's the thread:


Also, there is a thread where a WBF member @Halcro shows videos of several of his MM carts playing records. You can check it out here:


There are many cartridges to experiment with from the golden age of hifi and with the SME 3012R, it's relatively easy to change our the cartridges.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,684
10,946
3,515
USA
And all of this from a $400 cartridge. One of the biggest rabbit holes of all time, but their is a monster thread on Audiogon about some of the best MM cartridges made. I've purchased several of them, finding the Signet TK-7 series my favorite. @PeterA you heard the Signet TK-7AE when you visited my house.

There are many cartridges to experiment with from the golden age of hifi and with the SME 3012R, it's relatively easy to change our the cartridges.

Hello Jeff,

Yes, I am really quite surprised with how good this cartridge sounds in my system. Perhaps not the last word in ultimate resolution, but so well balanced and so fun to listen to. I really enjoyed hearing your system. I don't really remember hearing the Signet specifically as everything was so new, but I do remember you inserting an SPU and loving it. In that case I could kind of compare the two cartridges. They both sounded excellent. Thanks for the links.
 

jeff1225

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2012
3,013
3,265
1,410
51
Hello Jeff,

Yes, I am really quite surprised with how good this cartridge sounds in my system. Perhaps not the last word in ultimate resolution, but so well balanced and so fun to listen to. I really enjoyed hearing your system. I don't really remember hearing the Signet specifically as everything was so new, but I do remember you inserting an SPU and loving it. In that case I could kind of compare the two cartridges. They both sounded excellent. Thanks for the links.
I remember that you liked the SPU A95 more than the MM, but I believe your listening preferences might have changed since then.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,684
10,946
3,515
USA
Peter, I'd really be interested in your answer here. Every modern horn I've listened to has the tendency to push the stage fwds...certainly Cessaro Liszts and Animas do. AG absolutely do, so much so music can be in your chest or lap. I've heard this many times w Duos at Blue58, and Trios at a dealer.
Audiophile Bill's horns are the only ones that do the opposite...the stage is naturally layered, somewhat behind the spkrs. Despite absolutely falling in love w them, it was the only thing that gave me pause on fully engaging.
Interestingly I got way more used to that more distant stage on second visit, and then mentally recalled EVERY classical concert we've heard in a church or hall up here also has a soundstage further back.
Sure, sitting closer or further back changes the relative relations of things. But at no point is the music "projected" forwards.
Once I'd reconciled this, the final mental jigsaw piece of Bill's sound slotted into place, and to my mind I've never got as close to what I perceive to be natural sound than what I've heard with his creations.

I'm curious as to whether your experience with the VVs correlates with mine, how the Magicos were different, and whether you immediately adjusted to this. It did take me a second visit.

Marc, that is an interesting subject. I have little experience with horns. I did hear three different pairs at ddk's. They all had different presentations but not in the pronounced way you describe. None had the music (or musicians) on the listener's lap and none were so up front and in your face. The music filled the space all around the listener, but the images and stage were clearly laid out in front of the listener. The Vitavox in that setting did not really work as intended because of the room issues, but once we heard them pulled out into the room, it was clear to me they had potential: incredible resolution and tone.

For years I have been used to presentation of the typical box speakers pulled out into the room, both at my house with three different speakers, and at various dealerships and friends' houses. David's large horns, and to a lesser extent the JBLs in the smaller room, presented the music laid out in front of the listener. The large Bionors projected the sound forward and in front of the listener, but the stage extended behind the speakers as well. The musicians were never on your lap and the soundstage was always in front, depending on the recording. It could be small and intimate or huge. The system's ability to vary in scale was really remarkable.

When I first heard the Vitavoxs in the front corners, the images were pretty poor. This was my first real encounter with corner horns. There was no information behind the speakers/front wall, and the images never really came together. One we pulled them out into the room, the imaging improved, but I did not think this aspect of the presentation was going to be the reason for buying these speakers. David told me when set up properly in the right room, that they would project the image forward. This made sense to me because they were placed all the way back against the front wall. I wondered how it would be possible for them to present images beyond and behind that front wall.

Now, properly set up in my room with the various adjustments I made with strips of rubber foam and leveling to better couple them to my front corners, I am pretty shocked with how good the imaging is. I was not expecting this at all, though I didn't really know what to expect. They do not disappear quite as will as the Magicos which I suspect is a result of the protruding fireplace between the speakers, but it is a very convincing presentation. The Magicos presented the stage/image between and behind them. With eyes open, it was a bit distracting to see the speakers right in front of where the saxophonist was standing or right where the bass player was supposed to be, but with eyes closed, there was no sense the sound was coming from the two speakers. After eighteen months of set up experiments, I finally got the sound, not the images, to project forward of the plane of the speakers and fill the room, more or less as it does in real life.

The Vitavox presentation is somewhat different in my room. The images and stage occupy roughly the same zone in the room, but here, rather than being between and behind the speakers, they are projected forward. And in some cases on the right recording, surprisingly, the images are way back beyond and behind the front wall. The room boundaries are less apparent with the corner horns. Sound breaks free of the room to a larger degree. The energy projects forward expanding into the room, just like it did with David's big Bionors, just not quite to the same degree. Musicians are certainly not on my lap, but I do indeed feel the music on my body, especially the low frequencies. This happened at David's house as well and my musician friend commented on it and said it is one reason the system sounds so real. The energy is full spectrum and palpable. The images and soundstage are appropriately in front of the listener and not as bound by the walls, ceiling and floor of the room.

I would love to hear this new system in a much bigger room, but that is the compromise with which I must live for now. I thought I would be willing to give up a bit of palpable soundstage and presence of image with the corner horns to get the absolutely beautiful tone, dynamics, and bass performance, but it turns out that in my room, the Vitavox deliver at least as good a virtual presentation as the Magicos, and the Magicos did a particularly good job with this. I don't know how the more modern horns compare in this regard. It sounds like @Audiophile Bill 's horns are pretty special too.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: ddk

assessor43

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2018
312
194
128
I read that you are interested in using MM cartridges. I will be interested in hearing what you think about them especially with those vintage speakers. They may surprise you. IME not many cartridges sound as natural as good MM cartridges.

I was reading your comments above and from what I read, it seems like your system is still running in a bit. It is a beautiful setup that you have.
 
Last edited:

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,684
10,946
3,515
USA
I read that you are interested in using MM cartridges. I will be interested in hearing what you think about them especially with those vintage speakers. They may surprise you. IME not many cartridges sound as natural as good MM cartridges.

Yes. You can read my thoughts in post #298 from yesterday. I share my impressions of hearing the first MM cartridge in my system. The cartridge is a gift from David Karmeli, and it sounds fantastic in my system with these vintage corner horns.
 
  • Like
Reactions: assessor43

assessor43

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2018
312
194
128
I would bet those speakers have nice paper woofers in them. The speed of a good paper woofer with a great MM cartridge that you have must sound Sublime. Very nice gift!
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
3,820
239
1,000
Reno, NV
I would bet those speakers have nice paper woofers in them. The speed of a good paper woofer with a great MM cartridge that you have must sound Sublime. Very nice gift!
No, sublime sound is what Peter had before; now it's natural ;)
 

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
4,293
4,093
675
I would bet those speakers have nice paper woofers in them. The speed of a good paper woofer with a great MM cartridge that you have must sound Sublime. Very nice gift!

yes they are 15” Vitavox ak151 woofers with massive alnico motors and very light treated paper cones
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,684
10,946
3,515
USA
Here are the first two videos of the new system. I have posted many videos of these two recordings in the Sublime Sound thread so they should be somewhat familiar. For those who do not appreciate system videos over YouTube made by amateurs, please ignore this post. These are best heard via YouTube and with headphones:

1. Carla White/Manny Duran Band, Lover Man:

2. Holst, Savitri:

There are some extraneous noises. My wife opens the door and says "hi" after a long day of work around 4:18 in #1, and in video #2, you can hear trucks rumble by in the beginning and the phone is doing something strange in the very beginning to the devil's voice. Video #2 is back to normal after the first couple of minutes.
 

Audiophile Bill

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2015
4,293
4,093
675
Sounding great, Peter.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,797
4,550
1,213
Greater Boston
I never get tired of listening to Savitri!

Thanks, Peter, for introducing me to this great chamber opera by Gustav Holst.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rbbert

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,640
4,895
940
Fantastic! The presence of the voice in the Carla White/Manny Duran Band is some of the best I've heard on a video.
Also loved that about it. The music just coherently flows from beat to beat. Really nice and involving. Apologies Peter, I didn’t even notice your wife come home as I was completely caught up in the music.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jeff1225 and PeterA

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,142
495
I thought I heard some gurgling at 4:20?
 
  • Like
Reactions: bazelio

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing