Natural Sound

[rando]

Rando, I will give that some thought, but this is not the first time I have been unclear about what you are asking of me.

I must admit this was not the first time I've heard this. Today. Then again you appear to have puzzled through a vaguely stated attempt at probing to fill in the specifics that matter to you. Rather well actually.

I will consider what you mean by "background labors that have gone unmentioned thus far" to see if I can add some more insight into the genesis of this shift. I am not aware that I have left much out. I suppose you are asking for the reasons for this specific system: this very table, tube gear, and corner horns. I have answers for all that. Why David agreed to sell them to me, rather than keep them in his museum or sell them to someone else? Well about that, I would need to go deeper. I have ideas....

If the commotion you've caused gets too far out of control for your tastes you could always ask that this thread be locked until a point you feel an addition expressive of the above has coagulated. Consider this a request to please honor the desire for videos and all else to happen in your own time and at your own discretion. No need to rush or force ideas and opinions.

 

[ddk]

my emphasis

David, this is an area where I believe you provide tremendous value, not only to your customers but also to those of us who read what you have to say. Having the resources, the will, the years of experience and the aural insight, coupled with a desire to experiment, in bringing many differerent products together and then distilling great combinations, and then freely talking about that - it's something quite rare in the audio world. Add to that the opportunity to experience some of those products in combination goes well beyond talk - as you say one needs to have the direct experience to appreciate the differences. While many dealers work at similar, what is unique for you is a willingness to range across history, not being bound to current production models where the competition among manufacturers limits the lines a dealer may carry. I for one am happy you are willing to be direct and tell us your views on what you think is/are the best.

Thank you Tim !

david

 

[tima]

Thank you Tim !

david

David, you are most welcome. A recognition needed to be said. Don't ever stop. While I may not agree with everything you say, my/our audio understanding would be much narrower without your contributions.

 

[Lagonda]

Rando, I will give that some thought, but this is not the first time I have been unclear about what you are asking of me.

I suppose I have painted the broad strokes of fine tuning my former system to the point where I realized I would need to start changing gear to go further down the road toward natural sound. That started with the request for the Mirco Seiki, continued with the trip to Utah where I was exposed to the sound I realized I must pursue. From there it was a matter of logistics.

I underestimated what would be involved in making this shift: the sheer number of crates, the weight of the gear, the difficulty of rearranging everything in the room, the listing and selling of the old gear, the building of the ramp, the dollies, the temporary gear supports, arranging the help of friends, the packing up and shipping off of the sold gear. Happily that is now all behind me. The last piece of the puzzle is the new rack which I have designed and commissioned to be built. Many of my new components have not been played for years. The speaker wire is new. Things have to settle, and I have to start to fine tune the sound. David will then visit perhaps in late June and likely take set up a bit further.

When I was in Utah, I was intrigued by David's collection of cartridges. We played and compared a few. This was a lot of fun. I plan to experiment with different cartridges based on what I learned in Utah. One of my Colibris is now back at van den Hul being modified for the new highly efficient system. I want to explore vintage cartridges for this vintage system.

David just sent me one of his vintage moving magnets. This is the first new experiment. I installed it today and plan to fine tune it over the next few days. It has not been played for years, except to test it briefly before sending it. So far it sounds fantastic and seems very well suited for this system. David selected this particular sample from his collection of nine for my particular system. It is 10-15 years old.

Below are some photos. One very cool feature is the ability to change the collar to stylus distance. I matched it to the vdH Colibri measurement so that I could simply insert the cartridge and change VTF, anti skate, and VTA, leaving the alignment (overhang) the same. I suspect this will take my system further.

I will consider what you mean by "background labors that have gone unmentioned thus far" to see if I can add some more insight into the genesis of this shift. I am not aware that I have left much out. I suppose you are asking for the reasons for this specific system: this very table, tube gear, and corner horns. I have answers for all that. Why David agreed to sell them to me, rather than keep them in his museum or sell them to someone else? Well about that, I would need to go deeper. I have ideas....

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I will share a private post between David and me about the Vitavox :
Me:
"He will enjoy it, that is for sure, those speakers are beautiful !"

David:
"They really are and I had no intention of selling them but Peter turned out to be really nice so I was happy to let them go. I wasn’t kidding when I said it took me 20 years to get a pair like that."

 

[pjwd]

Yes, the label recorded some great music and an interesting array of musicians. I bought a lot of their stuff back in the 90’s and early 2000’s but not much after that. I was wondering why would Phil @pjwd think that the Vitavox or Peter’s system can’t play their recordings properly.

david

David , I didn't really assume anything.
From my very limited experience of that speaker type I wondered if they presented the smaller well recorded intimate ensemble as well as big band and large orchestral works as I assumed the former would be the magicos forte .. you have said yes ..thanks
Funnily enough the source for the time worn corner horns I heard was a micro seiki TT and the presentaion of orchestra in what was a large space was impressive ... this thread has been very thought provoking regarding that speaker design

Phil

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I recall when you started on the present pursuit two years ago, you noted that your listening group didn't always agree that your incremental changes toward "natural sound" were moving the sound in a direction they favored. I'm interested in whether the listening group members that have now heard your new system agree that the overall sound has "improved" from their vantage point? I ask because presumably now your listening group can hear (at your home) an accurate representation of what you heard at David's. I'm impressed with your all-in approach to reproducing what you heard in Utah.

Hello Al, No, some of my local audio friends did not like the initial changes to the set up that I began to implement a couple of years ago in my attempt to get my system to sound more natural. At first I struggled with finding the proper speaker locations when I abandoned toe-in. I think I eventually found it, but those guys never came back to hear the changes after that. They may have not been interested, and Covid took hold and maybe they felt uncomfortable returning. Ironically, it was listening to the voice of one of them with my eyes shut as he left the room that convinced me to try to rid my system of "pinpoint imaging". I realized right then while listening to him, and subsequently to others speaking, that such imaging does not exist in real life.

Apart from the two guys who heard the system for fifteen minutes after moving the speakers into the room to confirm they work, only two audio friends have heard my new system with the Vitavox speakers in place, plus a non audiophile musician friend. One of them, Madfloyd, shared his initial impressions earlier in this thread. The other friend seemed to like the sound, though it was so different for him, that he told me he needs time to reflect and listen again. I have no idea what that means. The musician friend loved it. Of the three recent iterations: Pass/Magico, Lamm M1/Magico, and Lamm ML2/Vitavox, he much prefered the last two and thought the new one sounded the most like real live music, particularly the bass and the brass sections. He also could not get over the immense energy that the system presented during Dark Side of the Moon.

I really do not know how others will react or respond to the new system. In one sense, it does not really matter to me as this is for my personal enjoyment and that is what I care most about. As an alternative to what the systems in the area generally sound like, my system may be considered as somewhat different sounding, and that alone may be of interest to them. They are surely curious. We will see soon enough when Al comes over and Ian returns. It is not clear to me that my other local friends have any interest in hearing it. I have not heard from them.

 

[PeterA]

I have started deleting my own post, when i realize i have gone to far of topic in Peters system thread ! I would recommend that practice to some other members ! This post will be visible for a limited time only !

That is very much appreciated Milan. It would be great if someone started a thread on ECM recordings and moved all of the off topic posts from this thread to that thread.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Peter,

So how are things now the dust has settled a bit? I can imagine you are just sitting back and revelling in the music with nary a hint of thought about sound stage this, VTA that etc.

What recordings you been listening to?

 

[Tom Danley]

Ok, that was what I was referring to as well...using the far wall to increase late reflections at the same time reducing near wall early reflections

Iirc Danley also has this approach...

I might be able to shed some extra light on the "directivity"aspect, at least for the things i have designed.
When one has a speaker that has a simple radiation pattern (not a pattern of lobes and nulls) , that pattern normally has a maximum on axis.

Ones spatial hearing is most sensitive to loudness so one can "toe in" the speakers as far as that each speaker is aimed at the farthest / kitty corner seat (as was once done in commercial sound when one source was used).



In a living-room, in stereo it generally makes the sweet spot a bit wider although it might look odd.


Part B, in critical listening, notice speakers are normally some significant distance from the side walls.

The reflected sound when speakers are close to side walls significantly degrades the stereo image by adding these confusing late snapshots of the original.
Rather than treating side walls with absorption, loudspeaker directivity can do this more effectively and even if aimed straight forward, this increases the size of the direct field by reducing the energy projected into the room where the ears aren't. If one has constant directivity and a speaker which can array like an SH-50, another possibility is to place one array-able angled side on the side wall canted inward and produces no reflected sound from that sidewall.

A great listening test which is usually revealing also makes for an excuse to have a BBQ if your location permits.


Set your stereo up outside in the same geometry and listeing distance as you have indoors except now there is no room effects.
Listen to your favorite music while relaxing.

You will likely notice at least two things.


One, the bass frequencies which are most contained and bounce around in your room are gone and you will want more lows AND you will notice on good recordings that there is a lot more phantom image in stereo then you have ever heard indoors. Remember which tracks those were for later.
Move it back indoors, the bass comes back and some of the stereo image goes away, the room gives and the room takes away and it's much more than most people realize.
As loudness vs Frequency is one frame of reference for a loudspeaker, Radiation angle vs Frequency is another and then there are things which are clearly audible in a loudspeaker but have no measure.
Best Regards
Tom Danley
Danley Sound Labs

 

[Joe Whip]

Peter, as long as you are loving the sound of the new set up, that is all that really matters.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,

So how are things now the dust has settled a bit? I can imagine you are just sitting back and revelling in the music with nary a hint of thought about sound stage this, VTA that etc.

What recordings you been listening to?

Hello Bill,

The system is sounding wonderful. I am tending to listen to familiar recordings that I have listened to a lot lately during the past few weeks as I was changing around the composition of the system. This was to better assess differences with very familiar LPs. I just switched cartridges yesterday, so I continue to do the same. These are mostly large scale orchestral works, some small chamber, vocal groups, choral music, and jazz. I am sitting back and revelling in the music, but I am still listening a bit critically because of all of the recent changes, but it is mostly for tone and dynamics with new cartridge adjusting. On balance though, I am not nearly as analytical as I was with the old system. This one just sounds more right and natural, so it is more relaxing and easy. I'm still getting accustomed to the new look of the system and room. The change is pretty dramatic in more ways than one.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, time just disappears when listening to great horns, even ones that are a bit flawed. I can well imagine you're being fully absorbed. The true definition of a musically holistic experience.

 

[leyenda]

@Peter congratulations on the new found land and thanks for sharing your journey in a very detail manner. I have listened to cn191 and have owned a Magico in the past so I believe I get where you are coming from. I can only hope my new audio journey will be as exciting and as joyful as yours.

The Technics mm, I have the same one and recalled it to sound very nice, without harshness in the top octave that other mms seem to have. I took mine out after seeing your post and I notice a very soft suspension. The cantilever feels saggy as soon as I touch it. I dont recall the cart to have such soft suspension but I guess I have never really paid attention to this last time I played it, which was a long time ago. Do you sort of feel the springiness when you touch the cantilever/tip or does it feel more saggy than other carts? Afraid mine has given up, will try to test play it on worn out lp.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hello Bill,

The system is sounding wonderful. I am tending to listen to familiar recordings that I have listened to a lot lately during the past few weeks as I was changing around the composition of the system. This was to better assess differences with very family LPs. I just switched cartridges yesterday, so I continue to do the same. These are mostly large scale orchestral works, some small chamber, vocal groups, choral music, and jazz. I am sitting back and revelling in the music, but I am still listening a bit critically because of all of the recent changes, but it is mostly for tone and dynamics with new cartridge adjusting. On balance though, I am not nearly as analytical as I was with the old system. This one just sounds more right and natural, so it is more relaxing and easy. I'm still getting accustomed to the new look of the system and room. The change is pretty dramatic in more ways than one.

The look is wonderful in your gorgeous room, Peter. Looks super classy.

 

[PeterA]

The look is wonderful in your gorgeous room, Peter. Looks super classy.

Thank you very much Bill. I appreciate your kind comments. I have been thinking for a number of years how to get the room back to a state where I could enjoy being in here beyond just listening to music.

Visitors have all commented on how much larger the room feels, despite the fact that it is still a very small room. Once the rack is here and we start working on lighting and artwork, I think it will really start to come together.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The perfect WAF spkrs...they really are heirloom furniture to everyone, just the afficionados know their true purpose. That's as "blending in" as hifi gets.

 

[PeterA]

@Peter congratulations on the new found land and thanks for sharing your journey in a very detail manner. I have listened to cn191 and have owned a Magico in the past so I believe I get where you are coming from. I can only hope my new audio journey will be as exciting and as joyful as yours.

The Technics mm, I have the same one and recalled it to sound very nice, without harshness in the top octave that other mms seem to have. I took mine out after seeing your post and I notice a very soft suspension. The cantilever feels saggy as soon as I touch it. I dont recall the cart to have such soft suspension but I guess I have never really paid attention to this last time I played it, which was a long time ago. Do you sort of feel the springiness when you touch the cantilever/tip or does it feel more saggy than other carts? Afraid mine has given up, will try to test play it on worn out lp.

Hello Leyenda, Thank you very much. That is quite interesting about the CN-191 experience and having owned Magicos. You can surely relate. My audio journey, likely far from over, will however be slowing down. I have learned so much in the past two years, the goal now is to simply put the final touches in place and settle down to the music.

Toward that end, I am really enjoying this Technics MM cartridge. The suspension does seem a bit soft compared to my vdH Colibris, but I have not gone around touching many cartridge suspensions, so I really don't know. There is springiness as you say. I have spent the last couple of days fine tuning it to the system will shortly post my impressions below.

 

[PeterA]

I have been listening to this LP for years. I often use it to confirm cartridge set up because of the harmonics of the two mandolins and their spatial relationship with and scale to the rest of the orchestra. ddk sent me one of his Technics EPC-205CMK3 cartridges a couple of days ago. I had heard about these and even read a little about them. I did hear one, or one similar, in David's system when I visited. It is the first moving magnet cartridge I have tried in my system.

Visible in the photo are the playing cards and the tiny allen wrench that I use to adjust the SME 3012R arm height. My new system seems to be so well matched and high in resolution that it is quite easy now to hear very subtle differences in cartridge adjustments. After 10-15 years of non use, this cartridge needs some time to break in and settle, but it is really starting to sound wonderful. In general, it is not quite as hyper and energetic as the vdH Colibris I have. The very leading edge is not as spotlit or pronounced, but, there is something about its overall balance and tone that just makes me want to relax and listen to music.

The cartridge seems well suited to this system, as one would expect knowing that David selected this very sample (out of nine he owns) for this particular system. This system is now a complete David Karmeli vision of Natural Sound. The Technics has a very beautiful tone. Everything seems in supreme balance. There is no spotlighting of anything. Dynamics are just a bit soft compared to the Colibris, but completely absent is the occasional aggression of the Colibris on close mic'd soprano or trumpet. Music is not pushed or forced out. It simply flows with great rhythm out of the speakers to fill the room. It is a more relaxed and calm sound. Scale, sense of space, expanding music and energy in the room, it is all there in a very natural presentation.

Nothing about this cartridge and system however sounds "vintage" or old fashioned. Rather, it lacks the "hifi" sounding artifacts so prevalent in the High End: highlighted details, black backgrounds, tight fast bass, pinpoint images, these are absent from my listening now. In their place, I hear huge amounts of natural resolution presented as a whole rather than as bits and pieces. Backgrounds are full of color. Acoustic bass and drums have hollow and resonating wooden bodies with textured vibrating string plucks, skins, and struck wooden sticks. Images are well proportioned with relative scale and they are not outlined or precise. Sound originates from areas that can be easily localized, but musicians and instruments are not so very clearly defined. The musicians are alive and breath, and sound surrounds the images, overlapping and spreading outward. The whole presentation is vibrant, alive and holistic.

This Vivaldi recording is very lovely. The battling mandolines go back and forth and pause for the rest of the orchestra. For years, there has always been something not quite right about their spatial relationship to each other. The left instrument was a bit lower and further back, the right one was a bit higher and more forward. I imagined that they should sound like they are side by side, spread out a bit at the front of the stage with the supporting instruments laid out behind and to the sides of them. Sadly, it just never quite sounded like I thought it should.

This afternoon, after I finished what I thought was a good job of fine tuning this new/old cartridge, I played this LP again. Laid out in front of me filling the entire front wall of my room, was a living breathing orchestra, extending back behind the front wall. The system disappeared, and the two mandolins appeared right in front of me, side by side, same height and distance from the front of the stage - just as I imagined it should sound for all these years. I was somewhat shocked. It was not a flaw in the recording as I had previously thought. It was the reproduction, the room layout, the cartridge set up, the system components, who knows? I was now hearing this favorite LP in an entirely new way with glorious string tone and harmonics filling the room.

I was left basking in the glorious swell of the orchestra and the two battling mandolines, back and forth, side by side, and then playing together in all their frenzy and chang ups. Their dialog was mesmerizing, so present were they in the room. The supporting strings grew in the background to fill the back of the stage. The clarity of the plucking, the beauty of the tone, the scale of the stage, the energy in the room. This is what Natural Sound is all about. David must be smiling to himself in Utah learning the system is starting to really come together.

 

[jeff1225]

Hello Leyenda, Thank you very much. That is quite interesting about the CN-191 experience and having owned Magicos. You can surely relate. My audio journey, likely far from over, will however be slowing down. I have learned so much in the past two years, the goal now is to simply put the final touches in place and settle down to the music.

Toward that end, I am really enjoying this Technics MM cartridge. The suspension does seem a bit soft compared to my vdH Colibris, but I have not gone around touching many cartridge suspensions, so I really don't know. There is springiness as you say. I have spent the last couple of days fine tuning it to the system will shortly post my impressions below.

View attachment 77620

I find the MM’s have more “give” and are usually of higher compliance than most MC’s.

 

[PeterA]

I have shown this photo many times. I don't know why I didn't think of this before, but this photo, and the sound I heard from this BSO cellist playing in this naturally amplifying space, makes me think of a horn loaded compression driver. This cellist moved here during his break between performances to hear what his instrument would sound like. I can't quite remember, but I think he played one of Bach's suites.

The installation guide for my new Vitavox speakers discusses how the low frequency cabinet couples with the corner walls of the listening room turning the room into a large horn. The listener is effectively sitting in the throat of the horn when listening.