Natural Sound

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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One does not need roll off for natural sound. Yes, some vintage speakers which have have roll off at 16khz are natural and some modern speakers with higher frequencies are not natural. However to conclude roll off is required for natural sound is just wrong. Yes, tannoys and altecs can be great and do have a slight roll off.

The point is that adding an extension just for the sake of extension with another driver (tweeters or super tweeters) can affect the natural sound by causing incoherence with the main driver.


Most people want roll-off, it's been thoroughly tested. I even remember a DAC that had that same roll-off slope built-in, lol. That's how we hear live music (as well as other sounds) in real life because high frequencies are attenuated over distance moreso vs lower frequencies. So with a stereo system we sit close relative to a concert and if you have a flat response it seems unnaturally tipped-up... because IT IS. So we want some roll off.

On coherence, I've found it varies a lot more from person to person. Some people aren't sensitive to a tweeter sounding disjointed, others pick up on it... I have tested this, the people who picked out the issue were invited back later to comment on further iterations. :D

Same with extension, some really notice it, other not so much. My T500s go up pretty high and I can hear an 18 kHz tone still, so for me I prefer the tweeter, but only after putting some effort into figuring out how to make it coherent. The speaker sounds great with the mid run w/o lowpass and no tweeter, the response is just less even than ideal over 15 kHz but you still get the psychoacoustic effect of highs being present. If you change to using an xo and tweeter, some people can hear the tweeter is more accurate and appreciate it, but it's at a frequency many people simply can't hear clearly anymore. For that reason, my speaker will give you the option to use it or not. If you're super-sensitive to coherence and can't hear over 12 kHz anyways, you may not want a super tweeter. ;) It doesn't seem like something Peter would be into...
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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It doesn't seem like something Peter would be into...

That is really hard to say Dave. For me it’s not about the extension or integration per se. It’s about how the whole speaker sounds in a particular context and how it presents the music. I have no way of knowing that until I hear it. Probably best not to pre-judge.
 
Congratulations Peter on moving to horn speakers from your Magico book shelf speakers. I can fully understand what you will be experiencing now in your music playback. I embraced horn speakers back in 1998 and have always used them for my reference main speaker sound systems since then. I still love my monitors (Harbeth) for my near field listening but have horn speakers for music scale effortless dynamics and live feeling of musicians in my room. I think the best way of speeding up this progression in awakening to the benefits of horn speakers is for people to experience more live music and hear how live bands actually sound.
 

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iaxel

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Wow Peter, amazing story!
Congrats on your new system and totally different direction in sound.
 
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microstrip

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Everything! Unique Hens teeth rare early 60 years old originals vs reproduction. Very different speaker and sound.

david
Even the S2 units?
 

Kingrex

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Feb 3, 2019
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Can a corner or center console speaker perform on par with a free standing speaker?

I'm sure it can sound pretty and beautiful. But we on these forums have spent so much time talking about the critical nature of speaker placement and room interaction. Then it appear on the surface this thread throws that out. A speaker can be packed into a corner and do all a free standing horn placed in a meticulously chosen location can do.

Ok, no one said that, or even implied it. But I am asking it. Can a corner or console, or have corner or consoles, been designed to overcome the limitation of being up against a back wall or corner. Is there a degree of performance loss that is taken as acceptable to gain the structure and decorum of blending in a home environment. Or do these speakers stand tall against a great horn well placed in a room.
Rex
 

airbearing

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May 2, 2012
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Peter,
the new system looks as if you have arrived in your sound heaven. Being a friend of the Micro Seiki units I came from the SX 8000 II to some other mods. David is your best advisor in this matter, so you are well advised listening to him. I have a kind of advanced Living Voice speaker which became my final tool. I like your photos, guessing you are in this hobby as well!? Ah yes, all these old men with the golden ears! Honestly, never understood why you liked the SME table that much. It is okay but now you are closer to Nirvana.
Hope you got good food by the cook David!?

Enjoy the music.
best
Eckart

 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Yes. Anyway S2 is not a speaker/
I think his point is(and you can never be sure about his points) that if they are making the S2 driver the same as they did in the 50s and the 15inch woofer the same as in the 50s and the cabinet the same as in the 50s and the same horn as in the 50sthen why should it sound very dIfferent?
The only obvious change would likely be the crossover; either the filter design has changed with time or the parts quality (this for sure changed unless they really using vintage caps and resistors.) or both.

It is not a replica because it is made with real Vitavox parts and made by Vitavox...that would be like saying the current Klipschorn (made by Klipsch) is a replica.
 

ddk

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I think his point is(and you can never be sure about his points) that if they are making the S2 driver the same as they did in the 50s and the 15inch woofer the same as in the 50s and the cabinet the same as in the 50s and the same horn as in the 50sthen why should it sound very dIfferent?
The only obvious change would likely be the crossover; either the filter design has changed with time or the parts quality (this for sure changed unless they really using vintage caps and resistors.) or both.

It is not a replica because it is made with real Vitavox parts and made by Vitavox...that would be like saying the current Klipschorn (made by Klipsch) is a replica.
Sample them and you’ll see why they’re not the same speaker. Same with Klipsch. Vitavox stopped production decades ago and sold off the tooling, no relation between current brand owner and original company. They actually make nice drivers and supply people much needed parts and I’m not saying they’re good or bad just that they’re quite different. The same company builds Tannoy reproduction cabinets and sticks vintage Tannoy drivers in them, are they considered real Tannoy Autograph? Sovtek bought the original tooling for 6n30P, do they sound anything like vintage 6n30P-dr? Vitavox had several iterations of their woofers, what they made in the 50’s, 70’s and late 70’s-early 80’s were different designs as were the crossovers and the horns.

david
 
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bonzo75

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The current Altec drivers made by GPA are known to be not as good as the originals. They are made using the same parts. The diaphragms of the 288 are known to sound different. The woofer is also tougher to move.
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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When I was in Utah, I spent some time listening to David's JBL M9500? in his small room. The achievement was getting those large speakers to sound good in that extremely challenging room, all without the standard audiophile room acoustic treatments. David achieved this, and I was very impressed with the result. However, I heard a slightly different sound than I did from the Vitavox or the big Seimanns. The sound was more "modern". I did not immediately put my finger on it, but after some discussion with David, it was clear that these modern horns sounded different because they had more extension, particularly in the highs, and the bass was somewhat different too. Thinking back on it now, I think they simply went out further in response, and were perhaps designed more from the measurement perspective than from listening, though I am not sure.

I was going to ask about your impressions of the Vitavox and M9500, so thanks for the proactive account above. You are fortunate in hearing both in proximity. And you chose to purchase the Vitavox - they certainly are appealing.

You describe hearing "a slightly different sound" with the the M9500 sounding "more modern" and @ddk noted it had greater extension in high frequencies and bass. You also describe the M9500 as "very good" though "very slightly less natural" without the same "magic" you heard from the Vitavox and Bionors.

I believe for those who follow the natural sound preference there is no singular instance of natural sound that is the archetype or "form". Just as different orchestras and concert halls will sound different, each of the performances by them or in them sound natural.

The same holds for different components that can demonstrate a natural sound - there is no one specific set of components that are ... how should I say this ... the most natural. Different people may enjoy different systems that sound natural differently while each may have one that suits them more than others. Do you too believe what I wrote in these last two paragraphs?

I'm very interested in learning more about the M9500, and contrasting it with the Vitavox (and other speakers exemplifing natural sound) will be most helpful. I know you like to say "it sounds natural" or "more natural" and that suffices for description. That is very helpful for understanding your personal view but in terms of describing differences to others it is generalized. (That is not a criticism; I'm simply trying to draw you out.) In post #5 of your new system thread you wrote a 20 point list of natural sound criteria or characteristics entitled "What is Natural Sound?." Using your list as a guide would you please talk more about differencs and similarities of the M9500 and Vitavox, particularly in your terms of "more natural" and "magic." TIA.
 
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tima

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Sample them and you’ll see why they’re not the same speaker. Same with Klipsch. Vitavox stopped production decades ago and sold off the tooling, no relation between current brand owner and original company. They actually make nice drivers and supply people much needed parts and I’m not saying they’re good or bad just that they’re quite different. The same company builds Tannoy reproduction cabinets and sticks vintage Tannoy drivers in them, are they considered real Tannoy Autograph? Sovtek bought the original tooling for 6n30P, do they sound anything like vintage 6n30P-dr?

The inability to replicate the sound of past speakers is quite fascinating. Why can't the replicate sound like the original? Sure there are different people now than then. Presumably one could take precise measurement of each part, composition of metal, paper, insulation, bolt torque etc. etc. and replicate all the physical pieces to a high level of exactitude. Is it a matter of sufficient resources to do that?

Then again I wonder if the sound of today's vintage speaker is the same as when the speaker was new? Hard to replicate the passage of time.
 

Folsom

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The inability to replicate the sound of past speakers is quite fascinating. Why can't the replicate sound like the original? Sure there are different people now than then. Presumably one could take precise measurement of each part, composition of metal, paper, insulation, bolt torque etc. etc. and replicate all the physical pieces to a high level of exactitude. Is it a matter of sufficient resources to do that?

Then again I wonder if the sound of today's vintage speaker is the same as when the speaker was new? Hard to replicate the passage of time.

I'm very curious about that as well. I don't believe it's literally impossible to replicate an old driver, but so far we've had big challenges.
 

bonzo75

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Then again I wonder if the sound of today's vintage speaker is the same as when the speaker was new? Hard to replicate the passage of time.

People have NOS drivers from the past to compare
 

Folsom

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People have NOS drivers from the past to compare

They're still different from just existing. They may not be rotting, but it's not abnormal for people to have to put some break cleaner on a surround to make it work again.
 

ddk

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The inability to replicate the sound of past speakers is quite fascinating. Why can't the replicate sound like the original? Sure there are different people now than then. Presumably one could take precise measurement of each part, composition of metal, paper, insulation, bolt torque etc. etc. and replicate all the physical pieces to a high level of exactitude. Is it a matter of sufficient resources to do that?

Then again I wonder if the sound of today's vintage speaker is the same as when the speaker was new? Hard to replicate the passage of time.
I'm very curious about that as well. I don't believe it's literally impossible to replicate an old driver, but so far we've had big challenges.
We’re not talking about the average mass produced vintage audio products, they‘re just old junk, easy to replicated. We’re talking about the best of the best made by geniuses of the golden age. What can you use to measure and acquire their knowledge and skills. Not only for speakers look at tubes many are built in the same plants with the original tooling but they can’t match what they didn’t create. Neumann cartridges, not much to them and many copies made but none come even close to the originals. Same as their mics, lathes, cutting heads, etc. EMT 927, WE horn speakers, Siemens Klangfilms and few others have never been replicated successfully even if the company still exists today, their people are gone. Even the better electrical AC motors, on paper basic engineering and there’s a high demand for quality ones anyone make them? Vinyl formulations, pure chemistry any of the current crap even come close? We can go on and on and on but it’s the same, genius doesn’t com in a bottle. You’re also dealing with materials and components that don’t exist anymore.
They're still different from just existing. They may not be rotting, but it's not abnormal for people to have to put some break cleaner on a surround to make it work again.
Many of the vintage drivers in question do not have surrounds to rot.

david
 

pjwd

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Jun 22, 2015
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Can a corner or center console speaker perform on par with a free standing speaker?

I'm sure it can sound pretty and beautiful. But we on these forums have spent so much time talking about the critical nature of speaker placement and room interaction. Then it appear on the surface this thread throws that out. A speaker can be packed into a corner and do all a free standing horn placed in a meticulously chosen location can do.

Ok, no one said that, or even implied it. But I am asking it. Can a corner or console, or have corner or consoles, been designed to overcome the limitation of being up against a back wall or corner. Is there a degree of performance loss that is taken as acceptable to gain the structure and decorum of blending in a home environment. Or do these speakers stand tall against a great horn well placed in a room.
Rex
Rex .. that is an intersting question.
One thing about corner horns is first wall reflections are your friend as they are a mirror with no delay .. you cant put a bass trap in the corner because there is a speaker alteady there so you pretty much remove 2 of the big acoustic issues in speaker placement.
Vintage corner horns i have heard looked their age but still gave a magnificent room filling depiction of large orchestras. What i wonder is how ECM style records sound on Peters new setup vs prevoius.
I also suspect the more discrete visual impact in the room of the corner speakers has a positive effect. It is an entertaining thread that Peter has given us voyers

Phil
 

Folsom

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We’re not talking about the average mass produced vintage audio products, they‘re just old junk, easy to replicated. We’re talking about the best of the best made by geniuses of the golden age. What can you use to measure and acquire their knowledge and skills. Not only for speakers look at tubes many are built in the same plants with the original tooling but they can’t match what they didn’t create. Neumann cartridges, not much to them and many copies made but none come even close to the originals. Same as their mics, lathes, cutting heads, etc. EMT 927, WE horn speakers, Siemens Klangfilms and few others have never been replicated successfully even if the company still exists today, their people are gone. Even the better electrical AC motors, on paper basic engineering and there’s a high demand for quality ones anyone make them? Vinyl formulations, pure chemistry any of the current crap even come close? We can go on and on and on but it’s the same, genius doesn’t com in a bottle. You’re also dealing with materials and components that don’t exist anymore.

Many of the vintage drivers in question do not have surrounds to rot.

david

Folded paper surrounds which are basically reworked cone material but ya... you have to have something or the cone could not move.

And sorry but I don't believe for a second that all the old stuff is derived purely from genius. In fact I think that's insane. The problem is that they didn't know then anymore than what we know now about what exactly every detail does for the sound. Basically everything old in the past had certain goals and met them based on how they knew they could, and didn't look back if it sounded good. I'm sure the compared some, but overall, realistically, they never spent the kind of time we are willing to in an attempt to dissect the whole issue.

The biggest problem is likely the unwillingness to accept that objectively bad decisions may be subjectively good.

BTW I thought the AS-2000, a modern turntable, was better than the EMT 927... sometimes when budget isn't the focus things can clearly be better.
 

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