Natural Sound

[PeterA]

That's the equivalent of saying you can only be with a real woman and never with a doll. What we are discussing here are dolls, and how artificial intelligence is improving to make them more and more realistic.

interesting comment Bonzo. Artificial intelligence and the naturalness of synthetic materials may be moving dolls in a preferable direction, but I think we should ask ourselves if the high-end audio industry is inexorably moving in a direction of more realism. The industry would want us to believe this, but I am not so sure.

You seem pretty impressed with certain drivers and the idea of custom horn cabinets as well as certain restored vintage turntables. I’m not so sure it’s only a matter of cost.

It is easy for some to simply write a big check and be convinced by peers and industry that it is closer and closer to realism. And yet there are others who are looking towards technologies long since abandoned, or some of the best examples from the past in an effort to get to closer realism.

Are we really marching forward and making progress in our pursuit of natural sound?

 

[Al M.]

interesting comment Bonzo. Artificial intelligence in the naturalness of synthetic materials maybe moving dolls in a preferable direction, but I think we should ask ourselves if the high-end audio industry is inexorably moving in a direction of more realism. The industry would want us to believe this, but I am not so sure.

You seem pretty impressed with certain drivers and the idea of custom horn cabinets as well as certain restored vintage turntables. I’m not so sure it’s only a matter of cost.

It is easy for some to simply write a big check and be convinced by peers and industry that it is closer and closer to realism. And yet there are others who are looking towards technologies long since abandoned, or some of the best examples from the past in an effort to get to close realism.

Are we really marching forward and making progress In our pursuit of natural sound?

That depends on the individual listener's perspective.

 

[Cellcbern]

Different people may mean different thins by "natural". For me natural sound means accurate or realistic (compared to live music) vocal and instrumental timbre and tonality which is priority #1 listening bias for me. While I listen to more jazz than anything I do not have a music genre preference at this point in my life. I also listen to classical, soundtracks, asian, middle eastern, and latin music, and the R&B I grew up listening to. I am aware of my listening biases. I'm a sucker for female vocals, and prefer small group and solo performances over big bands and full orchestras across all genres. I prefer the purity of Ella Fitzgerald's voice together with Joe Pass' guitar (and no one else) for example over Ella with a big band. I don't care nearly as much about pinpoint imaging and soundstaging which you don't hear at live performances as I do about natural timbre and tonality. I can't stand electronic artifacts, shrill stings, or metallic piano, and have yet to hear all solid state amplification components that I could live with.

In my 40+ years of audiophile experience continual improvements in several areas have moved my system in the direction of more accurate/natural/realistic sound: Component selection is critical of course, but every measure that I've found to reduce noise without adding its own artifacts has resulted in more natural sound. This has included both measures to reduce power line noise and measures to reduce vibration/resonance. Improvements in room acoustical treatment, by allowing me to hear the system rather than the room have also resulted in increasingly natural sound. My recent deployment of the ZR Acoustics panels in particular has dramatically improved the accuracy/naturalness/realism of the sound produced by my system. Finally, the exotic gold/silver/palladium etc. alloy conductor cables from Hemingway, Echole, and Fono Acustica sound more like real instruments and voices to me than any copper/silver cables I've heard. So I'm am replacing my power cables (initially) with such cables, a slow process since their high cost requires me to search for attractively priced used and demo examples.

Based on my experience, anyone who says that their system sounds more natural without or after removing acoustical treatments or AC power noise reduction measures hasn't heard/didn't have them properly deployed.

 

[tima]

We find videos can give us "some indication" of what is interesting and what is not in order to pursue further gear/ system investigation.

Okay, thanks.

 

[bonzo75]

interesting comment Bonzo. Artificial intelligence in the naturalness of synthetic materials maybe moving dolls in a preferable direction, but I think we should ask ourselves if the high-end audio industry is inexorably moving in a direction of more realism. The industry would want us to believe this, but I am not so sure.

You seem pretty impressed with certain drivers and the idea of custom horn cabinets as well as certain restored vintage turntables. I’m not so sure it’s only a matter of cost.

It is easy for some to simply write a big check and be convinced by peers and industry that it is closer and closer to realism. And yet there are others who are looking towards technologies long since abandoned, or some of the best examples from the past in an effort to get to close realism.

Are we really marching forward and making progress In our pursuit of natural sound?

Hi Peter, I already mentioned in this write up why some of the material used in audio was better quality material and more expensive (in real terms today, as it was inexpensive back then) than the material used today.

http://zero-distortion.org/tad-4003-dual-woofer-flh-leifs-system-norway/

For speakers, my favorites are horns and vintage horns had better drivers and better designs. Simple dual woofer FLH made for theatres (started with Western Electric, and then RCA, JBL, Altec, everyone used those are the best today. All horns designs were known then, nothing new has been done. There are some good drivers like AER and Radian. With designs most horns screw up trying to invent new twists on old ones. With Tannoys too, it is easy to hear that the old ones were better than new as things got outsourced and quality dropped. Following horns, apogees were till 90s, then there are stats, and some modern cones are good. Universum, Anima, trios, Tang's, are all good horns but certainly not better than the dual FLHs I covered.

For LPs, it is like 1000 to 0 that's the vast difference in favor of old. When someone on the forum says old LPs had lower dynamic range or not as good, or nostalgia (the difference is not at all difficult to hear), it only means they are voicing opinion on something they have zero experience with.

Vintage TTs like Garrard, TD 124 are high value when restored in terms of value for money. They can be bettered at higher prices with modern ones (not to be interpreted as by all higher priced modern TTs). Someone I visited had two micro seiki 8000s, I recommended him Vyger and he bought two, said they were better. Carts like vdh, phonos, are all modern. Thomas mayer and JC Morrison are the best electronics engineers imo but they do modern things based on vintage learning. That said modern also has a lot of crap while with vintage survivors have been filtered out.

You can see the General's system I had covered had modern gear with a sound that salutes the vintage and with old LPs. There is no point in saying only one era matters.

 

[PeterA]

That depends on the individual listener's perspective.

Precisely Al. That is my point. We seem to take for granted that the industry is marching forward. But this is not universal. And it does indeed depend on whom you ask. Perhaps I will post this on the other thread that is dedicated to this topic. I was merely commenting on Bonzo’s very interesting observation about dolls.

 

[Cellcbern]

Hi Peter, I already mentioned in this write up why some of the material used in audio was better quality material and more expensive (in real terms today, as it was inexpensive back then) than the material used today.

http://zero-distortion.org/tad-4003-dual-woofer-flh-leifs-system-norway/

For speakers, my favorites are horns and vintage horns had better drivers and better designs. Simple dual woofer FLH made for theatres (started with Western Electric, and then RCA, JBL, Altec, everyone used those are the best today. All horns designs were known then, nothing new has been done. There are some good drivers like AER and Radian. With designs most horns screw up trying to invent new twists on old ones. With Tannoys too, it is easy to hear that the old ones were better than new as things got outsourced and quality dropped. Following horns, apogees were till 90s, then there are stats, and some modern cones are good. Universum, Anima, trios, Tang's, are all good horns but certainly not better than the dual FLHs I covered.

For LPs, it is like 1000 to 0 that's the vast difference in favor of old. When someone on the forum says old LPs had lower dynamic range or not as good, or nostalgia (the difference is not at all difficult to hear), it only means they are voicing opinion on something they have zero experience with.

Vintage TTs like Garrard, TD 124 are high value when restored in terms of value for money. They can be bettered at higher prices with modern ones (not to be interpreted as by all higher priced modern TTs). Someone I visited had two micro seiki 8000s, I recommended him Vyger and he bought two, said they were better. Carts like vdh, phonos, are all modern. Thomas mayer and JC Morrison are the best electronics engineers imo but they do modern things based on vintage learning. That said modern also has a lot of crap while with vintage survivors have been filtered out.

You can see the General's system I had covered had modern gear with a sound that salutes the vintage and with old LPs. There is no point in saying only one era matters.

One of the big benefits of horns of course is that there is less radiation above, behind, and to the sides of the drivers, which reduces reflections and therefore the need for room treatment. Unfortunately there are no horn speakers that will work in the small listening rooms I've always had.

 

[Bobvin]

That's the equivalent of saying you can only be with a real woman and never with a doll. What we are discussing here are dolls, and how artificial intelligence is improving to make them more and more realistic.

The doll might be “realistic”, amazing, etc., but will never be “natural”. There is the real thing, and reproduction. Everything in this hobby is about reproduction, so IMHO can never be natural. I have yet to hear a system that even comes close to a live solo cello. (I admit I have limited experience compared to many.) In that case it is natural and real. All we do is try to make our systems reproduce that to the highest degree possible. Its not natural or real, only a facsimile. I’ll avoid that different people hear that real, live, natural sound of the cello differently.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes but if you have met a real person you will know how close or not the doll is. And you won't necessary try to say if she is real like scarlet, spice, cherry, ginger, etc specifically, you will know if she is like a person or not. Similarly you don't need to confirm real sound to a particular hall, you will know if it is like live

 

[Bobvin]

Yes but if you have met a real person you will know how close or not the doll is. And you won't necessary try to say if she is real like scarlet, spice, cherry, ginger, etc specifically, you will know if she is like a person or not. Similarly you don't need to confirm real sound to a particular hall, you will know if it is like live

Yes, it can be life-like (more and more or less so). Not “natural”, so the term is not valid description used in the context of sound reproduction. I maintain my argument.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, it can be life-like (more and more or less so). Not “natural”, so the term is not valid description used in the context of sound reproduction. I maintain my argument.

Ok I understand what you are saying

 

[Rhapsody]

Yes, it can be life-like (more and more or less so). Not “natural”, so the term is not valid description used in the context of sound reproduction. I maintain my argument.

"Natural" - existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

When I think of the word natural I think of sitting under a waterfall hearing the water drop on the rocks. I have never thought of the word natural in reference to music. But that's just me.

 

[microstrip]

"Natural" - existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

When I think of the word natural I think of sitting under a waterfall hearing the water drop on the rocks. I have never thought of the word natural in reference to music. But that's just me.

Nature gave us two ears and natural sound waves, stereo is an artificial entity. The difference is so large that natural stereo sound reproduction is intrinsically meaningless. As each of us is free to attribute a meaning to it, we need to explain it in an unique way. Otherwise we all have natural sound at home!

 

[Rhapsody]

Bob, do you think the waterfall sounds natural but Ella Fitzgerald’s voice in a nightclub or Grumiaux playing the violin on a stage does not sound natural?

And if it is just you, why post it on my system thread?

I'm quite sure that in the past I have used the word natural sounding with reference to a system. Only since this thread and thinking about it, it's not normal for me to use natural sounding to describe an audio system. It's usually life-like, real, explosive, dynamic, holographic, jaw-dropping, the usual terms.

I might describe Ella's voice as sounding sultry, flexible, wide-ranging, accurate and ageless not necessarily natural, although I can see you or others describing it as natural.

If I was describing the sound of AG doing a violin solo it might be something like, 'wow, such amazing tone and I can't believe the PERFECT intonation", MESMERIZING!

Excuse me for posing on "your system thread". If it offends you that I posted on your thread, my sincere apologies.

 

[ddk]

Nature gave us two ears and natural sound waves, stereo is an artificial entity. The difference is so large that natural stereo sound reproduction is intrinsically meaningless. As each of us is free to attribute a meaning to it, we need to explain it in an unique way. Otherwise we all have natural sound at home!

With that position then any adjective and description which alludes to reality or realism is a falsehood and waste of time to even try to achieve it and by extension all your systems sound electronic, synthetic and utterly artificial!

david

 

[Rhapsody]

Bob, I’m not at all offended, certainly not by any of this. You can post whatever you want. I was just curious why you would post something that is only unique to you by your own admission.

The point I was making earlier is whether or not something clearly man-made could be considered “natural”. By your posted definition it could not be. Since it seems like you would admit when asked if the violin sounds natural or Ella Fitzgerald‘s voice sounds natural that they do and that they don’t sound artificial, your earlier post makes no sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to you because you did not understand or mis-read what I said.

I said that I would NOT describe Ellas's voice or AG violin playing if I heard them in a live event as natural sounding. I gave these descriptions below that I would use, which I feel are much more descriptive if I was sitting at the live event vs. saying they sound natural.

"I might describe Ella's voice as sounding sultry, flexible, wide-ranging, accurate and ageless not necessarily natural, although I can see you or others describing it as natural.

If I was describing the sound of AG doing a violin solo it might be something like, 'wow, such amazing tone and I can't believe the PERFECT intonation", MESMERIZING!"

 

[microstrip]

With that position then any adjective and description which alludes to reality or realism is a falsehood and waste of time to even try to achieve it and by extension all your systems sound electronic, synthetic and utterly artificial!

david

No, the words can be complemented with a proper description, something that the "Natural Sound" defenders refuse. Good reviewers often do it using a language most audiophiles can understand. Surely it is not possible in a single synthetic sentence or just saying it "sounds like real music".

 

[ddk]

No, the words can be complemented with a proper description, something that the "Natural Sound" defenders refuse. Good reviewers often do it using a language most audiophiles can understand. Surely it is not possible in a single synthetic sentence or just saying it "sounds like real music".

Aside from Tim any of us a reviewer here? After all your scholarly quotes and F. Toole references this is your statement and you've said it many times before too.

Nature gave us two ears and natural sound waves, stereo is an artificial entity. The difference is so large that natural stereo sound reproduction is intrinsically meaningless.

You should start a new thread on artificial sound and why all your systems sound artificial and electronic to be true to your belief. You identified the artificial sound and have the benefit all those audio scholars so it should very easy for you to imitate the work of good reviewers. Please start thread and enlighten everyone with your discovery and descriptive vocabulary!

david

 

[PeterA]

Aside from Tim any of us a reviewer here? After all your scholarly quotes and F. Toole references this is your statement and you've said it many times before too.

You should start a new thread on artificial sound and why all your systems sound artificial and electronic to be true to your belief. You identified the artificial sound and have the benefit all those audio scholars so it should very easy for you to imitate the work of good reviewers. Please start thread and enlighten everyone with your discovery and descriptive vocabulary!

david

We all know that will never happen. Nice suggestion though. It’s much easier to hang out here and criticize than to offer an alternative. Even on a very interesting noise measuring device thread they are making jabs about this thread. Why? What is the point?

 

[ddk]

We all know that will never happen. Nice suggestion though. It’s much easier to hang out here and criticize than to offer an alternative. Even on a very interesting noise measuring device thread they are making jabs about this thread. Why?

Good question and we already know the answer.

david