Natural Sound

[tima]

I am no expert, but to me I think the attribution is misdirected to horns in general, and should instead be directed to vintage technologies (SET’s, high-efficiency paper cone speakers with cloth surrounds, field-coil speakers).

I mean no disrespect with this comment. What are called vintage technologies are still found in modern products or in some instances being rediscovered. One thing I hope is we never start talking about vintage sound.

 

[assessor43]

I am no expert, but to me I think the attribution is misdirected to horns in general, and should instead be directed to vintage technologies (SET’s, high-efficiency paper cone speakers with cloth surrounds, field-coil speakers).

I agree. paper cones make a huge difference to my ears.

 

[WeatherB]

Here is an image of the steel plates and temporary mobile platforms for the gear while the permanent rack is being made. It is truly surprising how much of a difference equipment supports can make. Past solutions in my system tended to over dampen the sound. The key seems to be to tune the supports so that the resulting sound is balanced, in other words, the supports must "do no harm". It is a very difficult thing to get right and very hard to make comparisons between competing products. I have opted for a DIY alternative allowing for much experimentation. It also allows me to allocate resources toward the fundamental gear.

View attachment 77423

Peter,
Where did you source your steel plates? I'm thinking of doing the same thing with Stainless Steel C316. These could look fantastic with an automotive paint finish.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,
Where did you source your steel plates? I'm thinking of doing the same thing with Stainless Steel C316. These could look fantastic with an automotive paint finish.

Hello WeatherB,

I got all of the steel plates from a local machine shop after specifying the type of stainless steel. They cut it to size and machined all sides. I wanted to keep them exposed with a polished finish so it required much additional sanding and grinding and polishing.

Painting them would be a great solution because the paint would fill in the machining marks. Then the paint could be polished. I think it would be much less labor-intensive then getting a nice smooth polished finish. And you could color match to taste.

The only advice I would offer is to make them at least 1 inch thick and to listen to them under your gear before you commit to the additional effort of painting them. I think they’re a great solution but others have tried steel plates and not liked them.

 

[bazelio]

While you certainly can have a ball with sanding, grinding, and polishing or automotive paint, I have found that spray on primer and a top coat of Rust-Oleum in an afternoon sounds every bit as natural. And so little of the plate shows once it's covered by a component anyhow. Also, if you're going to prime and paint, you don't need to pay for fancy 316 stainless plates. Here's my black Rust-Oleum job on an inexpensive A36 steel plate under my amp.

 

[PeterA]

After two years of basic lock down in MA, I was able to hear some live music again at a local jazz club. The virus shut down the business and it may not survive, but a good friend and patron hired one of their regular acts, Bobby Keyes, guitarist, then contacted the club's owner, invited a bunch of his friends, and made arrangements for dinner and a private concert. The owner was thrilled to open his doors for an evening, and I was happy to be able to recalibrate my ears with some live music. I am hoping that this once popular jazz club survives and is able to have more such evenings open to the public. What a great evening, made possible by a generous patron and music lover.

 

[PeterA]

@Tango inspired me to make another video and post it. He and his friends record videos to remind them of how a system sounds at a particular time. Things change, and the system then sounds different. I have made other videos of this recording, but they were of different configurations or cartridges.

This is the current presentation after I adjusted my arm based on criticism from two friends who heard my system recently. Both are musicians, one a drummer and the other a bass player. They told me they thought the tonal balance was not quite right, particularly on voices, so I fiddled some more, and this is the result.

I find choral music quite dynamic, perhaps too much so for the iPhone mic, and people are familiar with the sound of voices, so these types of recordings can be quite revealing of system sound, IMO.

 

[tima]

This is the current presentation after I adjusted my arm based on criticism from two friends who heard my system recently. Both are musicians, one a drummer and the other a bass player. They told me they thought the tonal balance was not quite right, particularly on voices, so I fiddled some more, and this is the result.

Musician friends - perhaps the best audiophile accessory!

 

[squasher]

This is the current presentation after I adjusted my arm based on criticism from two friends who heard my system recently. Both are musicians, one a drummer and the other a bass player. They told me they thought the tonal balance was not quite right, particularly on voices, so I fiddled some more, and this is the result.

Hey Peter,

What arm changes, specifically, did you do to get the tonal balance you were looking for?

 

[PeterA]

Hey Peter,

What arm changes, specifically, did you do to get the tonal balance you were looking for?

I lowered the arm by four playing card thicknesses, and increased the VTF by 0.08g. (1.30 to 1.38). And the Colibri is new and so I was using to low a tracking force. I may end up lowering it later after it has another 50 or 100 hours on it.

 

[Tango]

I lowered the arm by four playing card thicknesses, and increased the VTF by 0.08g. (1.30 to 1.38). And the Colibri is new and so I was using to low a tracking force. I may end up lowering it later after it has another 50 or 100 hours on it.

Hi Peter,

The VTA for me matter most in getting palpability. Without great palpability reproduced music becomes less engaging less connection to artist performance especially on classical. Taking 4 cards down will alter tonal balance a bit but sure can make palpability from wow to just good too. Of course depending on where you are before taking 4 cards out. In the end tonal balance comes from the dna of an equipment. I would rather have the tonal balance given from the equipment that I have already spent a lot of money on and set up my system to bring me most musical engagement and enjoyment from what have in hand than changing my system setup to get somewhat better tonal balance but music become less engaging as a consequent. Just stating my personal opinion.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,

The VTA for me matter most in getting palpability. Without great palpability reproduced music becomes less engaging less connection to artist performance especially on classical. Taking 4 cards down will alter tonal balance a bit but sure can make palpability from wow to just good too. Of course depending on where you are before taking 4 cards out. In the end tonal balance comes from the dna of an equipment. I would rather have the tonal balance given from the equipment that I have already spent a lot of money on and set up my system to bring me most musical engagement and enjoyment from what have in hand than changing my system setup to get somewhat better tonal balance but music become less engaging as a consequent. Just stating my personal opinion.

Hello Tang. I am just working on getting to know the new cartridge. I’m still trying to understand the set up for the most natural sound and getting a better handle on the effect of each of the various parameters.

Recalibrating my ears to live music after two years as I did a few days ago has also influenced my thinking about tonal balance in the new system. I have not really been exposed to the actual sound of instruments since getting the new system in the room. The live drums were most helpful both in the tone of the cymbals and the hollowness of the drums. The live bass helped me with the sense of weight which helped me adjust the tracking force. Two years without live music as a reference has been tough.

 

[tima]

This is the current presentation after I adjusted my arm based on criticism from two friends who heard my system recently. Both are musicians, one a drummer and the other a bass player. They told me they thought the tonal balance was not quite right, particularly on voices, so I fiddled some more, and this is the result.

Would you care to share what your musician friends said about tonal balance being not quite right. I'm interested in how they described that. tia

 

[PeterA]

Would you care to share what your musician friends said about tonal balance being not quite right. I'm interested in how they described that. tia

Yes Tim. After a couple of hours, one of my friends requested to hear some female vocals. We played one of the records he brought. The other friend then wanted to plug in a portable streamer/DAC/headphone amp he had brought. Hearing the same track on both confirmed for them that the tonal balance was from the vinyl chain somewhere, so I began to adjust the arm.

They both had commented that her voice lacked a sense of her chest. It seemed to come from her mouth/throat. I first increased the VTA by 0.05 and then again by another 0.05 g. That gave it some more weight but very slightly reduced openness and “air”. We listened some more and I then lowered the arm a bit. Then they both agreed they could hear “her chest”. She sounded more real. It was an LP one of them brought but I can’t recall what it was.

The next day I spent some time fine tuning some more with a variety of records and very slightly lowered the VTF and the arm a bit more. Before they came to visit, I set it to favor a bit more openness, but the tonal balance was a bit tipped up and there was a slight lack of weight to brass and voice. Final confirmation was made with the Solti Mahler 8th.

Edit: At the end, both musician friends said that you can learn a lot by just listening to the human voice. That is why I posted the video of the Holst recording after I made slight adjustments to the arm and having been reminded of the music by Tang.

 

[squasher]

At the end, both musician friends said that you can learn a lot by just listening to the human voice. That is why I posted the video of the Holst recording after I made slight adjustments to the arm and having been reminded of the music by Tang.

Interesting... I normally try to calibrate and fine tune SRA by using the method articulated by Doug Deacon..."adjusting for harmonic alignment" (or something of that nature).

I would imagine this procedure is more challenging if you're keying on human voice (since it's harder to identify the fundamental and subsequent secondary harmonics).

 

[PeterA]

Interesting... I normally try to calibrate and fine tune SRA by using the method articulated by Doug Deacon..."adjusting for harmonic alignment" (or something of that nature).

I would imagine this procedure is more challenging if you're keying on human voice (since it's harder to identify the fundamental and subsequent secondary harmonics).

I met Doug Deacon a couple of times and he convinced me to use his method of adjustment with the fundamentals and harmonics. Easy with a harpsichord for instance. I have found I now listen more for overall balance and naturalness. Perhaps they are the same thing. Doug's explanation made sense at the time. These friends were not talking about how to adjust the arm, they were just commenting on the sound. I had it wrong, and their comments got me to reevaluate the set up. It helped, but I am still learning. It's a new cartridge, and I'm not an expert.

 

[djsina2]

Kiyoaki Imai of Audio Tekne told me you can judge the natural sound quality by listening to someone speak on the radio. Interesting take on it.

 

[gestalt]

@Tango inspired me to make another video and post it. He and his friends record videos to remind them of how a system sounds at a particular time. Things change, and the system then sounds different. I have made other videos of this recording, but they were of different configurations or cartridges.

This is the current presentation after I adjusted my arm based on criticism from two friends who heard my system recently. Both are musicians, one a drummer and the other a bass player. They told me they thought the tonal balance was not quite right, particularly on voices, so I fiddled some more, and this is the result.

I find choral music quite dynamic, perhaps too much so for the iPhone mic, and people are familiar with the sound of voices, so these types of recordings can be quite revealing of system sound, IMO.

I recently picked up a copy of this LP in good condition and it's stunning. What a recording!

 

[gestalt]

Peter, how much anti-skating are you using with your vdH cartridges?

 

[PeterA]

I recently picked up a copy of this LP in good condition and it's stunning. What a recording!

Yes, it is excellent. It is one in a series of four.

Peter, how much anti-skating are you using with your vdH cartridges?

vdH recommends 0.25-0.3. The lowest setting on my SME 3012R is 0.5g, so it is set there. I have tried zero bias up to 1.5g. 0.5 sounds best in my system.