Good point Rich, and after all, our systems really are (or should be) the means to an end right. Not many people may have an appreciation of the gear, but certainly the majority of my friends are very much into music. The system is really just the vessel of delivery.
Non-audiophiles who listen to your system...Comments and experiences?
- Thread starter DaveyF
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Good point Rich, and after all, our systems really are (or should be) the means to an end right. Not many people may have an appreciation of the gear, but certainly the majority of my friends are very much into music. The system is really just the vessel of delivery.
I agree totally with vinylphilemag, I see nothing inherently wrong with trying to "educate and/or convert" a non-phile to the pleasures of the hobby and in listening to a better reproduction of music in the home.
I just wish I was more successful at it, because I am finding this to be a lost cause and IMHO that's a real shame
. If we could 'convert' more people to this hobby, I'm fairly certain that all of us 'philes would benefit.
Yes, but almost everyone seems to understand that a collectible coin can be worth more than its face value. Many seem to think that high-end audio is worth less.
Tim
We live in a busy world. My guess is that few people can envision themselves sitting in the sweet spot for hours on end listening to music when there is football to watch, yards to mow, kids soccer games to attend, computer "stuff" to do, house chores to accomplish, movies to watch, etc. Particularly when the cost of entry is high (yes, even $5000 is a lot of money) AND when portable music is so available.
When I got into this hobby/addiction (about 40 years ago) there were not so many options to demand my time. While I'll never know, it is interesting to ponder if I were not already deeply embedded, would I be willing to start from scratch today and get into the 2 channel music world!
When I got into this hobby/addiction (about 40 years ago) there were not so many options to demand my time. While I'll never know, it is interesting to ponder if I were not already deeply embedded, would I be willing to start from scratch today and get into the 2 channel music world!
Even in the heyday of hifi, when every hippie had a pretty good 2-channel system, I suspect those who sat in the sweet spot for hours on end were few and far between (and aided by recreational drugs). They may have had a Thorens, a Kenwood integrated and a pair of Altec Lansing Valencies (that was my version...). They may have played them louder. And that equipment may have been enough of a status symbol then to raise the tolerance level of their wives/girlfriends above speakers the size of a jewel box, but they still played, primarily, as background to other house activities. Everyone seems to love music, but the serious listener is a rarity. Always has been. The serious listener willing to invest the silly money that high-end hifi goes for is even rarer. For every audiophile with a $5,000+ system, there are hundreds of guys out there like my friend David, who has a ridiculous-huge library of music and listens while he works, while he cleans, while he bathes and, at the end of the day, while he sits there and just enjoys the music (I can't remember the last time I saw his TV running). Listeners don't come much more serious. The guy knows more about the history of popular music than the writers at Rolling Stone. Most of you wouldn't consider his system fit for your kitchen.
Tim
Hi
Somewhat OT but it comes down to the real value of a reproduction system. I must say that such notion is not very widespread in the high end where it is routinely admitted that dimishing returns is the Law...
It remains a fact that a good system truly enhances the musical experience. There is no doubt that for the true lover of music anything will do under most circumstances.. Most of you have certainly experienced a great musical piece on an alarm clock. I know I have. The same piece on a good system takes another dimension, even a better understanding. I believe those music lovers are potential audiophiles. Not in the sense of eternal tweakers( I surely hope they don't become that) but as persons who seek to enjoy music through good systems.. And it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, which is an issue with our present Sate of the High End where ... don't get me started...
I recently assembled this system for a friend of mine:
An Old IBM Thinkpad T-61..
An HRT Music Streamer
Makie 824 MK2
Pair of decent RCA cables
Took us a while to obtain bit-perfect on Windows XP Pro but we did .... I would say that with knowledge removed ( Makie is unlikely to be the first name an audiophile would utter) This little, less than $1500 system is capable of shocking more than one unsuspecting audiophile and this music lover is enjoying his with renewed fervor ..
I would say that his system has much more impact than my current audiophile headphones-based set-up ...
Somewhat OT but it comes down to the real value of a reproduction system. I must say that such notion is not very widespread in the high end where it is routinely admitted that dimishing returns is the Law...
It remains a fact that a good system truly enhances the musical experience. There is no doubt that for the true lover of music anything will do under most circumstances.. Most of you have certainly experienced a great musical piece on an alarm clock. I know I have. The same piece on a good system takes another dimension, even a better understanding. I believe those music lovers are potential audiophiles. Not in the sense of eternal tweakers( I surely hope they don't become that) but as persons who seek to enjoy music through good systems.. And it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg, which is an issue with our present Sate of the High End where ... don't get me started...
I recently assembled this system for a friend of mine:
An Old IBM Thinkpad T-61..
An HRT Music Streamer
Makie 824 MK2
Pair of decent RCA cables
Took us a while to obtain bit-perfect on Windows XP Pro but we did .... I would say that with knowledge removed ( Makie is unlikely to be the first name an audiophile would utter) This little, less than $1500 system is capable of shocking more than one unsuspecting audiophile and this music lover is enjoying his with renewed fervor ..
I would say that his system has much more impact than my current audiophile headphones-based set-up ...
Wow, do I have egg on my face! I knew that, but shouldn't type when I'm late for a plane. Thanks!
Lee
New visitors will comment or question the equipment/space – I briefly explain and move on or change the subject - Non audiophiles have little interest in our systems why bore them! I do not offer auditions unless they’re super inquisitive or absolutely insist.
Initially when I got into this game, I was extremely keen to make non-audiophiles listen to the system. BIG MISTAKE. They ridiculed the "Sweet Spot" word and seat. I guess I have learnt to move on from there.
I now only play the system if they absolutely insist or are a learned music lover.
I suppose in days gone by, before computers or even TV, we had little choice but to listen to the radio or play LP's on a large console. So a lot more people learnt to play musical instruments in order to entertain themselves, others and build skills.
Playing an instrument and attaining an amateurish level does hone in your listening skills. it also assists in learning instrument characteristics and appreciating capabilities of the proffesionals. In the days (mid 60's early 70's) audio playback was not that advanced and probably expensive too. People used the corners of their walls for a bass reflex enclosure and that was considered great hi-fi sound.
Advent, Goodmans, Tannoy's to newbies such as Altec's and JBL's were becoming recognised brands. It is this generation that embraced high end audio, and had the mullah to pay for it that gave manufacturers an opportunity to advance their products to today's standards. The non audiophiles then were more tuned to recognise good playback and get an itch for it.
This is a hobby hard for others to understand from a perspective of 'spend to enjoyment' comparison. Especially if they are not music lovers or capable to distinguish sonic properties.
In an age where there is just more than music to entertain us. My son would go on playstation the full day, but could get tired in listening to music for half an hour. Though he is constantly in tune with my system (a good six figure sum), hums and whistles tunes all day and can easily distinguish between a mid to high level playback system, yet does not have the emotional draw towards audiophilism. So I guess some people dig it and others don't feel the need.
My better half never encourages me on the system, in case I spend more, but blew me away when she commented on different pressings and naturalness of tone when asked for comparism by my audiophile friend. Ask her to sit in the "sweet spot" and its the "there we go again" look that I have to go through.
So now I don't bother playing the system for non-audiophiles, or trying to tell them why Harmonix dots cover a wall when they do see them (I just pass it off as security sensors/reflectors). Their ususal query is "Are those Speakers?" pointing to the Horns, with deafening silence and piercing stares as if they are about to explode or keep such ugly things in a room! Or "I never knew you listened to records still?" and the comments keep going on. I just change the subject.
I suppose if it does become too much, I do leave them with a bit of a teaser thought, by saying "Far better pleasure than any Ferrari I have sat in or could own- money well spent!". When they insist -then tell them they can listen another time.
After all I don't want to be ridiculed about that "Sweet Spot", as now I am also getting of that age where my hair is thinning out in the centre of my scalp! So I really won't know which spot they are talking about!
Let's leave the system and the music to the Audiophiles. Non audiophiles who convert to the hobby, will always get there somehow.
Viva la music!
I now only play the system if they absolutely insist or are a learned music lover.
I suppose in days gone by, before computers or even TV, we had little choice but to listen to the radio or play LP's on a large console. So a lot more people learnt to play musical instruments in order to entertain themselves, others and build skills.
Playing an instrument and attaining an amateurish level does hone in your listening skills. it also assists in learning instrument characteristics and appreciating capabilities of the proffesionals. In the days (mid 60's early 70's) audio playback was not that advanced and probably expensive too. People used the corners of their walls for a bass reflex enclosure and that was considered great hi-fi sound.
Advent, Goodmans, Tannoy's to newbies such as Altec's and JBL's were becoming recognised brands. It is this generation that embraced high end audio, and had the mullah to pay for it that gave manufacturers an opportunity to advance their products to today's standards. The non audiophiles then were more tuned to recognise good playback and get an itch for it.
This is a hobby hard for others to understand from a perspective of 'spend to enjoyment' comparison. Especially if they are not music lovers or capable to distinguish sonic properties.
In an age where there is just more than music to entertain us. My son would go on playstation the full day, but could get tired in listening to music for half an hour. Though he is constantly in tune with my system (a good six figure sum), hums and whistles tunes all day and can easily distinguish between a mid to high level playback system, yet does not have the emotional draw towards audiophilism. So I guess some people dig it and others don't feel the need.
My better half never encourages me on the system, in case I spend more, but blew me away when she commented on different pressings and naturalness of tone when asked for comparism by my audiophile friend. Ask her to sit in the "sweet spot" and its the "there we go again" look that I have to go through.
So now I don't bother playing the system for non-audiophiles, or trying to tell them why Harmonix dots cover a wall when they do see them (I just pass it off as security sensors/reflectors). Their ususal query is "Are those Speakers?" pointing to the Horns, with deafening silence and piercing stares as if they are about to explode or keep such ugly things in a room! Or "I never knew you listened to records still?" and the comments keep going on. I just change the subject.
I suppose if it does become too much, I do leave them with a bit of a teaser thought, by saying "Far better pleasure than any Ferrari I have sat in or could own- money well spent!". When they insist -then tell them they can listen another time.
After all I don't want to be ridiculed about that "Sweet Spot", as now I am also getting of that age where my hair is thinning out in the centre of my scalp! So I really won't know which spot they are talking about!
Let's leave the system and the music to the Audiophiles. Non audiophiles who convert to the hobby, will always get there somehow.
Viva la music!
Nevillekapadia, It does indeed seem that the general reaction from non-philes is what you and I and other 'philes are experiencing
What i find so baffling is the fact that to you and I, the sound is so amazing in our systems, BUT that most others cannot hear or more importantly appreciate that ( It baffles me, BUT I guess it doesn't bother me that much)
My wife is like most wifes it seems....Will listen for a few minutes at best and then gets bored
She tolerates the dedicated room and the equipment, and luckily for me seems to understand the value that I place on the system.
The circumstance that I described originally, got me thinking as to why this couple who dropped in, were initially VERY interested to listen to the system ( or at least that's what it seemed like,however, maybe I'm reading that wrong) BUT as soon as they sat for a listen their attention quickly waned.
It makes me question how any salesperson in a hi-end store deals with their potential customer...It must be VERY difficult to tell if that walk-in is just there out of pure curiosity, or in fact is a music lover waiting to be converted...or
What i find so baffling is the fact that to you and I, the sound is so amazing in our systems, BUT that most others cannot hear or more importantly appreciate that
( It baffles me, BUT I guess it doesn't bother me that much)My wife is like most wifes it seems....Will listen for a few minutes at best and then gets bored
She tolerates the dedicated room and the equipment, and luckily for me seems to understand the value that I place on the system.
The circumstance that I described originally, got me thinking as to why this couple who dropped in, were initially VERY interested to listen to the system ( or at least that's what it seemed like,however, maybe I'm reading that wrong) BUT as soon as they sat for a listen their attention quickly waned.
It makes me question how any salesperson in a hi-end store deals with their potential customer...It must be VERY difficult to tell if that walk-in is just there out of pure curiosity, or in fact is a music lover waiting to be converted...or
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DaveyF - I recall an interesting essay while my time at Cambridge UK where the author (psycologyst) graded people into three or four major cathegories depending on their first instinct to rely on, so there were olfative people, hearing individuals and so on.
Based on those perseptions, this author could discriminate further their personality, preferences, and so on.... I promise to look for this piece and share it if I am lucky to find it again thru the web.
Based on those perseptions, this author could discriminate further their personality, preferences, and so on.... I promise to look for this piece and share it if I am lucky to find it again thru the web.
The few people who have heard my system liked it. One friend really liked it a lot. I think that the fact that it is pretty different looking from what they have seen has an effect, too. I also think that we like to share the experience as a way of validation.
I've had uniformly great responses from people who ask to listen. It's probably wise to not be too keen - they can see the set-up, in its dedicated room, and will understand that what goes on in there must be important to me. Invariably I get a question about it, and that leads to my asking what kind of music they usually listen to. I never talk about the equipment before they sit down to really enjoy their favorite music for the first time.
That usually leads to questions about "How's it possible?" I talk about how the speakers and the room work together, and about my choice of sources (tape, vinyl has priority).
Quite a few invite themselves back for a dedicated listening session, and a number have ended up going down the high-end route themselves. I now have a vintage set-up, with some modern additions (the speakers, most significantly). My previous set-up was modern tech wall-of-sound with very realistic SPL and resolution. Both seem to have captured hearts and minds with equal ability.
My focus is on the music, and other high-enders who visit usually remark that "it's nice to not be listening to different cables and components an entire evening." I consider it important to get visitors to realize that the music industry, and their own desire for convenience, have robbed them of decades of musical enjoyment. It's a mission.
That usually leads to questions about "How's it possible?" I talk about how the speakers and the room work together, and about my choice of sources (tape, vinyl has priority).
Quite a few invite themselves back for a dedicated listening session, and a number have ended up going down the high-end route themselves. I now have a vintage set-up, with some modern additions (the speakers, most significantly). My previous set-up was modern tech wall-of-sound with very realistic SPL and resolution. Both seem to have captured hearts and minds with equal ability.
My focus is on the music, and other high-enders who visit usually remark that "it's nice to not be listening to different cables and components an entire evening." I consider it important to get visitors to realize that the music industry, and their own desire for convenience, have robbed them of decades of musical enjoyment. It's a mission.
I get different reactions. I've had a couple of whistlers, who whistle along wiith the music playing, one guy try hard to outperform the system to a point I had to leave the room because it was irritating already, but I just let him be thinking that it's his way of appreciating what he was hearing. During family gatherings, I have a female cousin who will just sit down and let herself get lost in the music without saying anything. When she stops mingling and sit in the basement (where I usually leave the stereo playing light jazz at moderately low volume) I know she is appreciating what she is hearing. Then there are the swooners who love Micheal Buble, Julio Igleasias and the like. When we have enough people singing along, the listening session usually end up being a karaoke session, in another system.
Most common reaction is a question" why does the music sound like they are not coming from the speakers?"
The guys usually notice the size of the cables, for some reason
A few audiophiles who came to my house totally ignore the stereo for the first 20 minutes or so, they get drawn to the aquarium first. The worst was a guy I'd known in audio for years, when he came to my house for the first time, we ended up talking about the aquarium for the most part. He's over 60 yrs old and into dogs (and owns a few exotic cars) and he told me - "I'd seen a lot of people do cool things inside their house, but this is the best one I'd seen"... the next few phone call ended up being about aquariums.
Most common reaction is a question" why does the music sound like they are not coming from the speakers?"
The guys usually notice the size of the cables, for some reason
A few audiophiles who came to my house totally ignore the stereo for the first 20 minutes or so, they get drawn to the aquarium first. The worst was a guy I'd known in audio for years, when he came to my house for the first time, we ended up talking about the aquarium for the most part. He's over 60 yrs old and into dogs (and owns a few exotic cars) and he told me - "I'd seen a lot of people do cool things inside their house, but this is the best one I'd seen"... the next few phone call ended up being about aquariums.
One of the most interesting reactions recently was the civilian who came in, didn't really notice the system, but looked at all the CDs... and then looked at me as if I was some kind of throwback. "Do you... still play these things?"
The idea that someone would still have a physical collection of discs seemed impossibly retro to him. That's what iTunes is for!
The usual comments are "whoa, that's a lot of gear", "those speakers are huge", "do you really need all that stuff to make it work?" and "how much does it all cost?". People used to ask about sound quality, but that stopped a few years ago.
The idea that someone would still have a physical collection of discs seemed impossibly retro to him. That's what iTunes is for!
The usual comments are "whoa, that's a lot of gear", "those speakers are huge", "do you really need all that stuff to make it work?" and "how much does it all cost?". People used to ask about sound quality, but that stopped a few years ago.
I think that if one wants to turn people back on to listening as a primary activity, showing them the big rig isn't very effective. While they get blown away with the sound, they also tend to suffer the visual overload of separates, room treatment, as Dimfer says, fat @ss cables. It can be extremely intimidating. My best friend actually said, "I love it, but I don't want to start because I might turn into a nut like YOU!" LOL. Eventually one will start asking about what something like that would cost and that can be a death blow. Even when you steer them over to a very good, simple system made up of say a CD player an integrated and bookshelves or small floor standers, it's so just anti-climactic.
The best thing I have found is to share good music. Eventually they want to hear the good stuff on better stuff. Save the big rig for those already blessed/cursed.
The best thing I have found is to share good music. Eventually they want to hear the good stuff on better stuff. Save the big rig for those already blessed/cursed.
Hello, Tim. I found your quote above to be an interesting observation from your point. For me, it's not necessarily explaining the "value" of any rig I may have. It's about planting the seed. The way I look at it, we [the audiophile] are a dying breed. Back in the 70's [at least from my point of view and generally speaking], there were many people whom I would run into that had by today's standards a really nice sound system. Today, there are only a handful of folks I know that I would say have a system that plays back music to the "standards" of that era. It seems the convenience crowd, the HT crowd and the folks that no longer wanted these coffins or big boxes in the room have all taken their toll.
So, for me it's all about planting the seed. For the next generation of audiophiles. I invite, but not force, folks who come over to see if they would like to listen to something. Once they listen, they understand the "value" and hopefully they will leave my house with the seed planted. My uncle Tommy unknowingly planted the seed in me when I was just 8 years of age. Once I heard great sound and the seed was planted, that was all she wrote. I have now become a tree in a forest that is seemingly still threatened by many aspects.
So, for me, it's not about the value. It's about planting the seed. Have you planted your seed today?
I now recall a old high school buddy whom I have not seen in decades, after finding out that I'm into the audio hobby, he visited me, listened, and told me he wanted a to set up a starting rig and asked me to help him out. He gave me a budget that he wanted to spend and I got back to him with a modest set-up gear recommendation for his room. After a couple of months, not having heard from him again, I called him to ask what happened. He told me he decided to pass on the audio hobby and take up playing badminton instead. He said: 'The racket is cheaper'. I think there was no pun intended.
I have a friend who listened to one of my systems and he got the bug. Now when he visits,he never forgets to remind me that I was the "one". Poor guy feels cursed,lol.
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