Ah, you are clever .... but actually these are the sliding doors towards the conservatory, not those in the 'room en suite'. Of the items you can see on the picture quite a few were sold, such as inter alia the Metronome kalista reference cd-transport and the Kondo dac.
Note the Date! Genesis Dragons Bon Voyage Party in April!
- Thread starter carolkoh
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Ah, you are clever .... but actually these are the sliding doors towards the conservatory, not those in the 'room en suite'. Of the items you can see on the picture quite a few were sold, such as inter alia the Metronome kalista reference cd-transport and the Kondo dac.
Yes I know that pic has the Marten Coltrane Supremes, you can barely see the one speaker peaking through on the right of the picture. Was just showing a teaser pic but here's a better one. Ya I realize the pic's are from back in 2010. This one is a nice shot showing the actual Marten set-up along with your 1.1's and yourself - first initial in your name "L"
Very nice home and gear!
![IMG_5663[1].jpg](https://www.whatsbestforum.com/data/attachments/14/14528-9684c6a46bf93237e7dc5d6b36430680.jpg "IMG_5663[1].jpg")
![IMG_5677[1].jpg](https://www.whatsbestforum.com/data/attachments/14/14527-e90682e65502b098cdb243591e6d9e13.jpg "IMG_5677[1].jpg")
Ya I knew, I was just playing with ya
I'm sure this looks familiar - blacked out image just for you but you are already on the net Being a recent owner of IRS V's I have my memories along with folder with any related pics with either Infinity or Genesis related speaker set-ups - always peaks my interest seeing set-ups and with what components have been chosen as Gary knows.
I'm sure Gary won't mind as it's all in all apart of Genesis speakers. I have never heard a pair set-up "wings" as close together as in your pic's with the woofer towers in behind - never mind with the gorgeous Kondo gear driving - would really enjoy hearing. My room was approx. 30 ft wide with 15 ft ceiling and approx. 47 ft long so I was able to get some pretty amazing sound but moved and lost that room. Tried setting up in a much smaller room similar to the width you have but did not have the ceiling height nor length you currently have, I was not satisfied over all - kept them for a while but eventually sold them
How big is the room that Paul McGowan uses for his system? I think he has a 7-part series on youtube in which we sets up his IRS Vs one bit at a time...i fast forwarded to the last few minutes of Part 7 where he plays Pink Floyd. That was quite a bit smaller than Audiocracks i think?
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Not wanting to hijack Gary's thread and perhaps if there is interest this could be a topic for a new thread. This question is for Gary, Rudolph or Dev. Here's my dilemma and I need some help understanding. As I see photos of setups of this speaker my dilemma is that I always seem to see the bass tower set up 6-8 feet behind the main tower. Would you all not agree that the time alignment between the two towers is incorrect without the use of DSP and/or more correct positioning of the bass tower with respect to the main tower. It just seems to me a much wider room is required for these huge speakers. Failing that some sort of DSP is required. To Gary....... Is there any time alignment in the bass towers. Not wanting to be picky but rather needing some insight into my question.
Ya I knew, I was just playing with ya
Being a recent owner of IRS V's I have my memories along with folder with any related pics with either Infinity or Genesis related speaker set-ups - always peaks my interest seeing set-ups and with what components have been chosen as Gary knows.
I'm sure Gary won't mind as it's all in all apart of Genesis speakers. I have never heard a pair set-up "wings" as close together as in your pic's with the woofer towers in behind - never mind with the gorgeous Kondo gear driving - would really enjoy hearing. My room was approx. 30 ft wide with 15 ft ceiling and approx. 47 ft long so I was able to get some pretty amazing sound but moved and lost that room. Tried setting up in a much smaller room similar to the width you have but did not have the ceiling height nor length you currently have, I was not satisfied over all - kept them for a while but eventually sold them
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I knew you knew ("L") but I guessed most people did not get it and I just wanted to be be sure that everyone understands. A real pity that due to room restrictions you actually needed to sell your IRS V. I have never heard the IRS V speakers myself but - given the similarities between them and the Genesis 1 loudspeakers - I am sure I will love them.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
That is exactly the same question that Marty asked.
Speaker placement like this all have to do with group delay. There is more of less group delay with any piece of electronics you place - especially crossovers (there is also group delay with band-pass and vented bass enclosures but I do not use them). Hence, since the power amplifier is driving the crossover (which has group delay) of the midrange/tweeters and also in parallel driving the crossover/amplifier/servo-circuit (which also has group delays) of the bass towers we can design for the effect of such delays.
It can get complicated because the phase shift at the crossover frequencies means that we have group delay that is frequency-related. But, we can get it sounding close enough.
Through all the electronics and the crossover, the woofers, with cone inertia and momentum minimized by servo-control, is a little faster than the midrange. Sound travels approx 1ms a foot. Hence, I placed the woofers about 5 feet back.
My preferred placement would have been a wider room, and then we can put the bass towers flanking the midrange/tweeter towers and still achieving the same delta in distance to the listener. But because the warehouse racking is permanently fixed (necessary in Seattle as it is an earthquake zone), we could not move the racks.
DSPs can not advance timing into the future, and are not the panacea that everybody thinks it is. I preferred the sound of the system without the analog to digital to analog conversion that using DSPs would entail. But that is just my opinion.
Speaker placement like this all have to do with group delay. There is more of less group delay with any piece of electronics you place - especially crossovers (there is also group delay with band-pass and vented bass enclosures but I do not use them). Hence, since the power amplifier is driving the crossover (which has group delay) of the midrange/tweeters and also in parallel driving the crossover/amplifier/servo-circuit (which also has group delays) of the bass towers we can design for the effect of such delays.
It can get complicated because the phase shift at the crossover frequencies means that we have group delay that is frequency-related. But, we can get it sounding close enough.
Through all the electronics and the crossover, the woofers, with cone inertia and momentum minimized by servo-control, is a little faster than the midrange. Sound travels approx 1ms a foot. Hence, I placed the woofers about 5 feet back.
My preferred placement would have been a wider room, and then we can put the bass towers flanking the midrange/tweeter towers and still achieving the same delta in distance to the listener. But because the warehouse racking is permanently fixed (necessary in Seattle as it is an earthquake zone), we could not move the racks.
DSPs can not advance timing into the future, and are not the panacea that everybody thinks it is. I preferred the sound of the system without the analog to digital to analog conversion that using DSPs would entail. But that is just my opinion.
Gary can undoubtedly give you a much more detailed technical explanation, but by adjusting the phase, low-pass and high-pass options of the dedicated woofer amps (designed by Paul McGowan for the Genesis 1 and 1.1 models; I believe Gary created his own class d amps for the Genesis 1.2 model) you are able to create a seamless sound. But it takes considerable experience or if you want trial and error to get it right. In my case I was not satisfied with the quality of the original Genesis 1.1 xovers and therefore a friend/technician completely reworked the xovers using only Duelund silver caps. Only then I became truely happy with my Genesis 1.1-Kondo combination.
that is essentially the same response that my 2 tower MM7 speaker designer, Kevin Malmgren, gave to that same question. in a perfect world (sufficient width) you would have both towers on the same radius to the listening position (how the MM7's are in my room) for the ideal in time and in phase wave launch. the MM7's have a 1st order crossover. but that there are other perfectly good spots for the bass towers that work well and can be optimized and compensated for in set-up.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
It's difficult for me to agree that a tower placed 5-8 feet behind another tower is time aligned. Mike, I thought your configuration of your towers that I saw last night were better positioned for time alignment. Maybe I'm just a slow learner
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Gary. I agree with your suggestion. Flanked side by side makes so much more sense
Steve, It depends on the propagation delay of the electronics and cables before the drivers. Gary is saying that with his design the woofer towers need to be 5 ft further away from the listener than the mid/treble towers. Which means that the signal gets to the woofer towers sooner than the mid/treble towers.
With Mike L's speakers the woofer towers were designed to be the same distance away from the listener as the mid/treble towers. Which means the signal must get to both sets of towers at the same time.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Sean. You're preaching to the choir. I get it. It just seems to make more sense to me to have the two towers flanking but if what you say is so then do I infer that it makes the sound worse if the two towers are flanking. All I am really trying to say is that these are magnificent speakers and it seems they perform better in rooms that are far wider. I am not advocating DSP but was trying to wrap my head around one tower being placed so far behind the other. The speaker and electronics require a huge foot print. IIRC Gary said that his set up was 180sq ft
With the Genesis you could still have the woofer towers flanking the main towers but they would need to be inline and spread out further or slightly moved back and spread out less. As long as they end up around 5 ft further away from the listener than the main towers. Mike's woofer towers are actually forward of inline with the main towers to make up for being spread out further than the mains.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
I cheat.
Sound propagates at 1.1ft per ms. The woofers amps have a delay that is slightly ahead of the midrange - so you should ideally place the woofers about 10ft behind the midrange. But, we also have an adjustable delay (phase shift) built into the control module. With the woofers only 5ft behind the midrange, I use the control module to add another 5ms of delay to come to the correct delay. If the woofers are flanking the midrange, I would add 10ms of delay. But this is only to make for less cognitive dissonance between visual and aural senses
Given all this, it makes one wonder IF HP ever truly heard the full capability of his IRS V's in his room at Sea Cliff?
Although, everyone that heard them apparently thought they sounded great!
Although, everyone that heard them apparently thought they sounded great!
Gary, I'm certain you played fantastic music at the party.
Would you please post a list of the recordings you played?
Would you please post a list of the recordings you played?
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
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