Observations From An Interesting Listening Session

[jazdoc]

Last evening, Scott Sheaffer (Found-Music), Joel Durand (Durand Tonearms) and myself meet at Mike Lavigne's to hear the new Ortofon Anna cartridge. Definitely one of the funniest and most educational evenings of my audiophile life.

As a background, I've had the pleasure of many visit's to Mike's place. The room is great, the music collection is to die for and the host incomparable. The sound has usually been good, at times very good, but on some visits things were disappointing. Last night, the only new variable for me was the Anna cartridge. Now I respect Mike's previous reference, the A90, but it was never my sonic cup of tea. The Anna is different and much, much better (as it should be for twice the price). Right from the first cut, the cartridge is clearly quieter in the groove and much better at rejecting tics/pops. The Anna is much quicker than the A90 and therefore more resolving. The Anna possesses a high end frequency elegance that the A90 does not. The bass goes deeper and is more refined and controlled. If you own an A90 don't fret, it's a top cartridge. The Anna is simply a better cartridge.

Then the evening got really interesting. Scott and Joel worked together to optimize the cartridge/tonearm set up. We used two reference quality LPs: Muti conducting "Pictures at An Exhibition & The Firebird Suite, MSFL 1-520 and Rossa Passos/Ron Carter's "Entre Amigos" on Chesky. Initially changes in azimuth improved the sound. Some in the room were ready to quit; others urged us to continue to experiment. Ultimately, changing one parameter at a time, VTA, alignment and azimuth were all adjusted. Oft times, the change was a 1/16 turn of a screw. The final results: breathtaking and possibly the finest audio reproduction I've ever heard. Previously noted system shortcomings were reduced or completely eliminated and much more of the system's immense potential unleashed for our sonic bliss. We listened to everything from Damien Jurado to Ben Webster to Led Zeppelin. The system was (unlike some prior visits) in complete control, utterly relaxed and incredibly dynamic. The soundstage was even wider and deeper than ever. Where on previous visits the musicians were recessed in the room (albiet with great depth and width of soundstage), now there was more coherent layering with some musicians slightly out in front of the speakers. The individuals better defined without etching. As we packed up to go our separate ways, there was discussion of how to push the envelope even further (working on speaker and seating positioning).

Thanks to Mike for an enjoyable and memorable evening.

A few additional observations from the evening:

1. Music is one of life's great joys and always better when shared with friends.
2. While digital continues to improve and offers a bigger bang for the buck at smaller levels of investment; at the lunatic extreme, vinyl can bring you much closer to the actual event. IMO, in the best systems, the gap between vinyl and digital is widening, not shrinking.
3. With vinyl, set up is critical and becomes more important the better the ancillary equipment.
4. Vinyl adds a huge degree of complexity to the audiophile's attempt at SOTA reproduction. Take cartridge set up. If you fix one variable like VTF, optimizing all of the other degrees of non-independent variables will yield the best sound for that particular VTF. The question then becomes what is the best VTF to optimize the sound? You can drive yourself crazy without others helping you out!
5. Observation #4 requires that the dedicated vinylphile be dedicated (?committed?) to learning set up and having the patience over several listening sessions to get the most out of their rig.
6. Observations #4 and #5 lead to inertia. If it sounds pretty good; why push (?torture?) myself to take things to the next level? I suspect many expensive systems are operating far below their potential.
7. Having honest friends with good listening skills is extremely helpful to overcoming the natural inertia that prevents us from optimizing what we own.
8. To further expand on #3; all high-end systems have their own set of variables. Once you decide on a piece of equipment, much effort is spent selecting other gear to compliment the equipment.
9. Digital reduces the number of variables and is an excellent choice if you can't tolerate the additional variables that is inevitable part of vinyl.
10. Music is one of life's great joys and always better when shared with friends.

 

[vinylphilemag]

A great read! I've had the pleasure of being one of Mike's guests (yours too, let's not forget), and I agree with all of your observations!

 

[RogerD]

Sounds like a great evening and thanks for the observations.

 

[LL21]

Wow...very cool! Thanks for taking the time to post. Sounds like it was a great time.

 

[fas42]

An excellent rundown. And reminds me of the many times when I visited the friend with both vinyl and CD: walking in, the sound was reasonable, but with clear problems, and as the listening session progressed some major area of weakness was located and substantially tweaked, so that the listening time ended on a high.

All but 2 of the 10 points are right on the money: IMO, in the best systems there is no gap between vinyl and digital, the replay mechanism just gets totally out of the way, and what you relate to is the recording itself, as in the content captured thereon. The illusion is complete, you are at the actual event.

And the other point I disagree with is 9. There are as many variables, in some senses quite a few more with digital: the big headache is that they are firstly not as well understood, and secondly many are much harder for the non technical amateur to fiddle with. So, for best digital sound at the moment you're at the mercy of the manufacturers, and the few tweakers who really know what to do to to optimise things ...

Frank

 

[microstrip]

(...) 9. Digital reduces the number of variables and is an excellent choice if you can't tolerate the additional variables that is inevitable part of vinyl.
10. Music is one of life's great joys and always better when shared with friends.

Jazdoc,

Gret post. Although I would agree with many of your comments, mostly the last one , as I just had a pleasant dinner with our ARC, Wilson, Dartzeel and other goodies distributor , I disagree about 9.

I have found digital to have a very large number of variables if you really want it to be a good source. Digital equipments sound very different, depend on signal cables, power cables and digital formats.System matching is critical , and even worst, very difficult to predict. And the gap between a very good sound and something that I can not consider enjoyable is sometimes very narrow.
But, as you say, if you manage to get it right it can be very enjoyable.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Last evening, Scott Sheaffer (Found-Music), Joel Durand (Durand Tonearms) and myself meet at Mike Lavigne's to hear the new Ortofon Anna cartridge. Definitely one of the funniest and most educational evenings of my audiophile life.

As a background, I've had the pleasure of many visit's to Mike's place. The room is great, the music collection is to die for and the host incomparable. The sound has usually been good, at times very good, but on some visits things were disappointing. Last night, the only new variable for me was the Anna cartridge. Now I respect Mike's previous reference, the A90, but it was never my sonic cup of tea. The Anna is different and much, much better (as it should be for twice the price). Right from the first cut, the cartridge is clearly quieter in the groove and much better at rejecting tics/pops. The Anna is much quicker than the A90 and therefore more resolving. The Anna possesses a high end frequency elegance that the A90 does not. The bass goes deeper and is more refined and controlled. If you own an A90 don't fret, it's a top cartridge. The Anna is simply a better cartridge.

Then the evening got really interesting. Scott and Joel worked together to optimize the cartridge/tonearm set up. We used two reference quality LPs: Muti conducting "Pictures at An Exhibition & The Firebird Suite, MSFL 1-520 and Rossa Passos/Ron Carter's "Entre Amigos" on Chesky. Initially changes in azimuth improved the sound. Some in the room were ready to quit; others urged us to continue to experiment. Ultimately, changing one parameter at a time, VTA, alignment and azimuth were all adjusted. Oft times, the change was a 1/16 turn of a screw. The final results: breathtaking and possibly the finest audio reproduction I've ever heard. Previously noted system shortcomings were reduced or completely eliminated and much more of the system's immense potential unleashed for our sonic bliss. We listened to everything from Damien Jurado to Ben Webster to Led Zeppelin. The system was (unlike some prior visits) in complete control, utterly relaxed and incredibly dynamic. The soundstage was even wider and deeper than ever. Where on previous visits the musicians were recessed in the room (albiet with great depth and width of soundstage), now there was more coherent layering with some musicians slightly out in front of the speakers. The individuals better defined without etching. As we packed up to go our separate ways, there was discussion of how to push the envelope even further (working on speaker and seating positioning).

Thanks to Mike for an enjoyable and memorable evening.

A few additional observations from the evening:

1. Music is one of life's great joys and always better when shared with friends.
2. While digital continues to improve and offers a bigger bang for the buck at smaller levels of investment; at the lunatic extreme, vinyl can bring you much closer to the actual event. IMO, in the best systems, the gap between vinyl and digital is widening, not shrinking.
3. With vinyl, set up is critical and becomes more important the better the ancillary equipment.
4. Vinyl adds a huge degree of complexity to the audiophile's attempt at SOTA reproduction. Take cartridge set up. If you fix one variable like VTF, optimizing all of the other degrees of non-independent variables will yield the best sound for that particular VTF. The question then becomes what is the best VTF to optimize the sound? You can drive yourself crazy without others helping you out!
5. Observation #4 requires that the dedicated vinylphile be dedicated (?committed?) to learning set up and having the patience over several listening sessions to get the most out of their rig.
6. Observations #4 and #5 lead to inertia. If it sounds pretty good; why push (?torture?) myself to take things to the next level? I suspect many expensive systems are operating far below their potential.
7. Having honest friends with good listening skills is extremely helpful to overcoming the natural inertia that prevents us from optimizing what we own.
8. To further expand on #3; all high-end systems have their own set of variables. Once you decide on a piece of equipment, much effort is spent selecting other gear to compliment the equipment.
9. Digital reduces the number of variables and is an excellent choice if you can't tolerate the additional variables that is inevitable part of vinyl.
10. Music is one of life's great joys and always better when shared with friends.

So what does that say about those reviewers who don't adjust their VTA for a given record?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Last evening, Scott Sheaffer (Found-Music), Joel Durand (Durand Tonearms) and myself meet at Mike Lavigne's to hear the new Ortofon Anna cartridge. Definitely one of the funniest and most educational evenings of my audiophile life.

As a background, I've had the pleasure of many visit's to Mike's place. The room is great, the music collection is to die for and the host incomparable. The sound has usually been good, at times very good, but on some visits things were disappointing. Last night, the only new variable for me was the Anna cartridge. Now I respect Mike's previous reference, the A90, but it was never my sonic cup of tea. The Anna is different and much, much better (as it should be for twice the price). Right from the first cut, the cartridge is clearly quieter in the groove and much better at rejecting tics/pops. The Anna is much quicker than the A90 and therefore more resolving. The Anna possesses a high end frequency elegance that the A90 does not. The bass goes deeper and is more refined and controlled. If you own an A90 don't fret, it's a top cartridge. The Anna is simply a better cartridge.

Then the evening got really interesting. Scott and Joel worked together to optimize the cartridge/tonearm set up. We used two reference quality LPs: Muti conducting "Pictures at An Exhibition & The Firebird Suite, MSFL 1-520 and Rossa Passos/Ron Carter's "Entre Amigos" on Chesky. Initially changes in azimuth improved the sound. Some in the room were ready to quit; others urged us to continue to experiment. Ultimately, changing one parameter at a time, VTA, alignment and azimuth were all adjusted. Oft times, the change was a 1/16 turn of a screw. The final results: breathtaking and possibly the finest audio reproduction I've ever heard. Previously noted system shortcomings were reduced or completely eliminated and much more of the system's immense potential unleashed for our sonic bliss. We listened to everything from Damien Jurado to Ben Webster to Led Zeppelin. The system was (unlike some prior visits) in complete control, utterly relaxed and incredibly dynamic. The soundstage was even wider and deeper than ever. Where on previous visits the musicians were recessed in the room (albiet with great depth and width of soundstage), now there was more coherent layering with some musicians slightly out in front of the speakers. The individuals better defined without etching. As we packed up to go our separate ways, there was discussion of how to push the envelope even further (working on speaker and seating positioning).

Thanks to Mike for an enjoyable and memorable evening.

A few additional observations from the evening:

1. Music is one of life's great joys and always better when shared with friends.
2. While digital continues to improve and offers a bigger bang for the buck at smaller levels of investment; at the lunatic extreme, vinyl can bring you much closer to the actual event. IMO, in the best systems, the gap between vinyl and digital is widening, not shrinking.
3. With vinyl, set up is critical and becomes more important the better the ancillary equipment.
4. Vinyl adds a huge degree of complexity to the audiophile's attempt at SOTA reproduction. Take cartridge set up. If you fix one variable like VTF, optimizing all of the other degrees of non-independent variables will yield the best sound for that particular VTF. The question then becomes what is the best VTF to optimize the sound? You can drive yourself crazy without others helping you out!
5. Observation #4 requires that the dedicated vinylphile be dedicated (?committed?) to learning set up and having the patience over several listening sessions to get the most out of their rig.
6. Observations #4 and #5 lead to inertia. If it sounds pretty good; why push (?torture?) myself to take things to the next level? I suspect many expensive systems are operating far below their potential.
7. Having honest friends with good listening skills is extremely helpful to overcoming the natural inertia that prevents us from optimizing what we own.
8. To further expand on #3; all high-end systems have their own set of variables. Once you decide on a piece of equipment, much effort is spent selecting other gear to compliment the equipment.
9. Digital reduces the number of variables and is an excellent choice if you can't tolerate the additional variables that is inevitable part of vinyl.
10. Music is one of life's great joys and always better when shared with friends.

Jazdoc,

thanks for being your typically eloquent and thoughtful self in describing our session last evening. "....better shared with friends" being most spot on. for me, with this group, i always feel like the dolt among artists and scientists, and artist/scientists. the brain-power is palpable. i try my best to keep up, and appreciate the understanding and tolerance of my shortcomings.

what was awesome about this particular session was how excellent the Anna was already sounding, and then how much further into the unknown reproduction frontier it was able to go with all the talent applied. i was the one who just wanted to get to listening to some music, but when this group is in the 'search for perfection' mode it is best to sit back and enjoy the ride.

so i did.

and i'm floored by what i now am listening to that my words are not worthy to do justice to.

as far as how good the Anna is and how it compares to other cartridges; we will just have to wait until there are a few Anna's out there and people can listen to them.

i did invite Ki to visit so we can play some tapes and get a sense of relative performance. i know what i think. in my mind that is where one will find a worthy reference for this level of performance.

i'd like to add that while the Anna was the 'one variable' as Jazdoc mentions and the wonderful effort of the set-up; credit for the magic of the performance must be shared with the Durand Telos tonearm and Wave Kinetics NVS turntable.

 

[rad]

Jazdoc,

I find your post a most excellent read & I would have to agree on all 10 of your astute observations. You nailed it on all accounts in my opinion. Being there in that group would be special indeed. A trip out there someday is on my radar.

I got to meet Scott a couple of months ago when he was in town. He stopped by my home & was so kind to help me optimize my set up. He knows his stuff to say the least & was extremely helpful.
What a great guy & I learned a ton as well.

You stated in #3 & 4 about how set up & adjustments are critical the more resolving a system is. I could not agree more. I will add that source material is also of high priority.
Once you hear the benefits of a well tuned vinyl set up,,, yes, the gap between digital & vinyl seems to be much farther apart then we assumed it was.
Digital has come along way in the last 5 to 7 years, no doubt, but still has ( imho ) a ways to go.

I Have to be careful when I go to my room for the evening. If I play cd's first or throughout the evening,, everything is great as my digital set up is fantastic.
What I have to watch out for is playing Tape or Vinyl first & then,,,,,, going back to Cd's. I can hear then how much of a separation there really is.

Long Live Vinyl /Analog..

I like #10 ( Music is one of life's great joys and always better when shared with friends. )

Gary

 

[mep]

I’m surprised the digital drum beaters haven’t stormed into this thread with a fist full of their digital specs and telling everyone involved that you couldn’t possibly have heard what you think you heard and that it’s all a result of fertile imaginations at work. I mean, we all know that analog is fatally flawed compared to its perfect digital cousin don’t we?

Good thread Doc. It's always nice to read about the bleeding edge of analog playback.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So what does that say about those reviewers who don't adjust their VTA for a given record?

Myles,

i'm not sure where pressing by pressing VTA adjustment is validated by this session. in fact just the opposite; i think that what we find is that messing with any one varible, like VTA/SRA, can cause many other adjustments to be less than ideal. particularly with precise instruments such as the Anna and Telos. so i think that i would never consider any sort of constant tiny adjustment pressing by pressing. you would end up in a constant flux of confusion. it would not be fun.

not to say that VTA adjustment for every record might not be valid for some.

 

[NorthStar]

I feel right at home here, among music lovers, and great sharing friends. :b

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles,

i'm not sure where pressing by pressing VTA adjustment is validated by this session. in fact just the opposite; i think that what we find is that messing with any one varible, like VTA/SRA, can cause many other adjustments to be less than ideal. particularly with precise instruments such as the Anna and Telos. so i think that i would never consider any sort of constant tiny adjustment pressing by pressing. you would end up in a constant flux of confusion. it would not be fun.

not to say that VTA adjustment for every record might not be valid for some.

Basically, I brought this topic up based on Marc's comments (see #3) about the criticality of set up.

Let's put it this way Mike. How can one review a top notch piece of gear and know what you're really listening to without adjusting for VTA esp. if you're playing thin rock LPs all the way up to a 200 gm pressing? I'm not sure why the Telos/Anna is all that different than any other top notch analog front-end in that matter. (now of course, VTF is changed but that's easily compensated for with the Counterintuitive for the VPI arm).

When we're describing the sound of a given component, reviewers are often splitting fine hairs and something like VTA can in my experience (take for example, transparency), make or break a record. And the better the phono stage, the more apparent this becomes (like I'm finding with the Doshi and Tele 801S tubes installed). For instance, listen to a solo piano recording like Ivan Moravec on Connoisseur. You can't get the focus of the instrument right nor the right tonal balance for his Bosendorfer unless you play with VTA.

 

[jazdoc]

Myles,

I do know folks who change VTA with every record. I'm not that compulsive... I would say that after we achieved consensus on set-up, everything sounded great. Could we (corporate 'we') have wrung a little more performance from each disc by fiddling more? Possibly. And I could see how that would be important for a reviewer. For me, it's not worth the extra effort...but I admire those who do.

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. I share your awe at watching Scott and Joel in action....

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Myles,

I do know folks who change VTA with every record. I'm not that compulsive... I would say that after we achieved consensus on set-up, everything sounded great. Could we (corporate 'we') have wrung a little more performance from each disc by fiddling more? Possibly. And I could see how that would be important for a reviewer. For me, it's not worth the extra effort...but I admire those who do.

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. I share your awe at watching Scott and Joel in action....

Mark,

to be very clear, i absolutely include you in my comments about brains and scientists/artists. you keep up with the finer nuances of what those guys are doing on a level i can only enjoy from afar. maybe someday if i'm around you enough some will rub off.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles,

I do know folks who change VTA with every record. I'm not that compulsive... I would say that after we achieved consensus on set-up, everything sounded great. Could we (corporate 'we') have wrung a little more performance from each disc by fiddling more? Possibly. And I could see how that would be important for a reviewer. For me, it's not worth the extra effort...but I admire those who do.

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. I share your awe at watching Scott and Joel in action....

Guys, my intent was not to criticize you but those reviewers who set their arm height for an "average" record (whatever the hell that means) and then review equipment. How can you be so meticulous about putting your wires on supports, cleaning your connections, putting pointy things under your equipment and then turn around and ignore VTA/SRA? Those who have or had something like the ET arm and its dial micrometer can really appreciate just how important an infinitetesimal adjustment in height makes for the sound of any LP.

 

[jazdoc]

Guys, my intent was not to criticize you but those reviewers who set their arm height for an "average" record (whatever the hell that means) and then review equipment. How can you be so meticulous about putting your wires on supports, cleaning your connections, putting pointy things under your equipment and then turn around and ignore VTA/SRA? Those who have or had something like the ET arm and its dial micrometer can really appreciate just how important an infinitetesimal adjustment in height makes for the sound of any LP.

Myles,
I completely agree. If a reviewer is not adroit enough to do this on their own, I hope that they have buddies who can help them. I'm always dubious when I notice that a reviewer doesn't detail how they fiddled with set up to achieve what they consider the best best sound.