Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

My experience with Panzerholz is that it’s detrimental to a rich high resolution system and its ill effects are immediate and obvious. Of course in a low resolution system one isn’t going to miss what wasn’t there to begin with. The impact of panzerholz when used for platform material under electronics is near total loss of harmonics, micro and macro dynamics and as a result tone and timber also suffer. The negative effects were consistent with all the electronics I tested the shelves with and the same general losses were noted in my recent encounter with the Daiza platform and an Artezania rack. Here’s the back story to it all.

We used Panzerholz years ago in construction projects, one of its qualities aside from strength was relative ease of finishing and looked like an ideal product to use for shelves and amp stands and I had some made for personal use by the same Italian firm that manufactured our exhibition furniture. In use my initial reaction was neutral but I was uncomfortable with my system knowing that something was off. There was that total lack of harmonics and micro and macro resolution I mentioned above, what remained seemed poignant and hifi, hard bone and no meat. It took a while but after making a couple of Garrard plinthsI figured out that the culprit was Panzerholz. Some further tests confirmed my suspicions.

david
 
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tima said:
Hmmm ... you pinged my scepticism with that one Ron. I'm taking it as 'friendly conjecture'. But if you have more info, pls share. Don't know if your comment is not controversial, but I did not take it for granted.

Couldn't find any references to violins, violas, cellos, basses, clarinets, recorders, lyres, oboes, bassoons basset horns, etc. etc. made from Panzerholz®

I did see where the Delignit Brand (maker of panzerholz) sells their Delignit® wood product for use in piano rim panels. Now all this stuff from Delignit is translation from their native German, so it's a bit awkward (for me anyway). I'm assuming when they say rim panel they refer to what is known as the piano rim, viz. the spine, bentside and tail of a grand piano- the outside rim, usually laminated - not the sounding board. Uprights have rims too.

Presuming from Delignit having that use for their Delignit product (which is not panzerholz but some other engineered wood) they have seen it actually used for piano rims. But I couldn't find reference to any pianos claiming to use it - maybe it's a trade secret. We know companies have made pianos for hundreds of years without it. It's a possible choice. Not sure that is sufficient to claim panzerholz is "good for use in musical instruments." Imo, panzerholz audiophle devotees ought make its case on its merits without association to musical instruments. But I do understand why some are inclined to make the association.

I don't know if its fair to trees to call panzerholz wood. It does have wood in it. Being a proprietary product there is some mystery to it. Guess we can assume that when someone refers to it as wood they mean engineered wood.
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I was positing merely friendly conjecture. I did not mean to imply that I think panzerholz is a good wood out of which to make musical instruments.

I meant to suggest only that since some woods are good for musical instruments and audio components, it would not be nonsensical to think that other woods are good for musical instruments and audio components.

The cites and links posted above my post seemed to suggest that some people think panzerholz is good for audio components.
 
ddk said:
My experience with Panzerholz is that it’s detrimental to a rich high resolution system and its ill effects are immediate and obvious. Of course in a low resolution system one isn’t going to miss what wasn’t there to begin with. The impact of panzerholz when used for platform material under electronics is near total loss of harmonics, micro and macro dynamics and as a result tone and timber also suffer. The negative effects were consistent with all the electronics I tested the shelves with and the same general losses were noted in my recent encounter with the Daiza platform and an Artezania rack. Here’s the back story to it all.

We used Panzerholz years ago in construction projects, one of its qualities aside from strength was relative ease of finishing and looked like an ideal product to use for shelves and amp stands and I had some made for personal use by the same Italian firm that manufactured our exhibition furniture. In use my initial reaction was neutral but I was uncomfortable with my system knowing that something was off. There was that total lack of harmonics and micro and macro resolution I mentioned above, what remained seemed poignant and hifi, hard bone and no meat. It took a while but after making a couple of Garrard plinthsI figured out that the culprit was Panzerholz. Some further tests confirmed my suspicions.

david
Click to expand...

David, Would not the effect of a platform under an electronic component depend on how that component is coupled to or de coupled from the platform? My Pass Labs amplifiers with their massive heat sinks do ring when struck or even when I clap my hands loudly in the room. I can hear the resonance bouncing around the room. I can damp that resonance with some rubber or weight on top of the metal heat sinks and case work, but the sound of the system suffers.

I am currently using the stock rubber footers under the amps which sit on ballasted Vibraplane platforms. I imagine that if I replaced the stock rubber footers with metal spikes, some of that energy from the component would be transmitted into the steel ballast plate above the Vibraplane and drain away.

I read elsewhere on WBF recently, that how the component is coupled to the Diaza platform makes a big difference. I should experiment more with my particular amps, but right now I am enjoying the sound without playing with footer types. I wonder if the detrimental effect of the panzerholz on the harmonics that you observed would be altered if those electronics were coupled or decoupled from the panzerholz differently.

For a while back around ten years ago or so, there were a few people who built panzerholz plinths for turntables. Some have moved onto different materials now. My understanding is that panzerholz was used in an attempt to dampen internally generated resonances created by the motors. A few years ago a good friend brought his SP10 MK3 over to my house for an audition. It was in one of these very beautiful panzerholz plinths. He used the same SME arm, tonearm cable and AirTight cartridge that I had on my SME turntable, so the comparison was fairly direct. Compared to my turntable, his table did not convey the instruments' harmonics. Timber suffered and was not accurate. Everything sounded hard and somewhat brittle. The sound was not natural and the music seemed to have lost its soul. It was a cool, dry sound. We were both pretty surprised by the different sound of the two tables.

Your description above about the sound and effect of panzerholz reminded me of this experience, particularly the robbing of harmonic content. I just can't be sure if it was the SP10 turntable itself, the panzerholz plinth, or some combination, but those were the two variables in our fairly direct turntable comparison, and the difference was a clear and distinct lack of harmonics.

I tend to agree with those who contend that in audio, it is the implementation that matters. There are clearly people who like products that use panzerholz. I was interested to read that it is not dissimilar from resin impregnated birch plywood. My old speakers had birch plywood cabinet sides, and the rack I built to support my front end gear is made of birch plywood.
 
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Ron Resnick said:
I was positing merely friendly conjecture. I did not mean to imply that I think panzerholz is a good wood out of which to make musical instruments.

I meant to suggest only that since some woods are good for musical instruments and audio components, it would not be nonsensical to think that other woods are good for musical instruments and audio components.

The cites and links posted above my post seemed to suggest that some people think panzerholz is good for audio components.
Click to expand...

Ron,

It seems quite a few speaker companies like Wilson, Meridian, Rockport, Kaiser present their cabinets as being inert as is possible including the use of panzerholz and composites whilst others such as Sonus Faber do the opposite and state that they don't try and deaden the wooden cabinets but make it part of the sound, resonance and all? Then their are the metal speakers like YG and Stenheim.

Which school is correct i have no idea. I'm sure it is partly personal preference and system balance dependent.
 
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PeterA said:
David, Would not the effect of a platform under an electronic component depend on how that component is coupled to or de coupled from the platform? My Pass Labs amplifiers with their massive heat sinks do ring when struck or even when I clap my hands loudly in the room. I can hear the resonance bouncing around the room. I can damp that resonance with some rubber or weight on top of the metal heat sinks and case work, but the sound of the system suffers.

I am currently using the stock rubber footers under the amps which sit on ballasted Vibraplane platforms. I imagine that if I replaced the stock rubber footers with metal spikes, some of that energy from the component would be transmitted into the steel ballast plate above the Vibraplane and drain away.

I read elsewhere on WBF recently, that how the component is coupled to the Diaza platform makes a big difference. I should experiment more with my particular amps, but right now I am enjoying the sound without playing with footer types. I wonder if the detrimental effect of the panzerholz on the harmonics that you observed would be altered if those electronics were coupled or decoupled from the panzerholz differently.

For a while back around ten years ago or so, there were a few people who built panzerholz plinths for turntables. Some have moved onto different materials now. My understanding is that panzerholz was used in an attempt to dampen internally generated resonances created by the motors. A few years ago a good friend brought his SP10 MK3 over to my house for an audition. It was in one of these very beautiful panzerholz plinths. He used the same SME arm, tonearm cable and AirTight cartridge that I had on my SME turntable, so the comparison was fairly direct. Compared to my turntable, his table did not convey the instruments' harmonics. Timber suffered and was not accurate. Everything sounded hard and somewhat brittle. The sound was not natural and the music seemed to have lost its soul. It was a cool, dry sound. We were both pretty surprised by the different sound of the two tables.

Your description above about the sound and effect of panzerholz reminded me of this experience, particularly the robbing of harmonic content. I just can't be sure if it was the SP10 turntable itself, the panzerholz plinth, or some combination, but those were the two variables in our fairly direct turntable comparison, and the difference was a clear and distinct lack of harmonics.

I tend to agree with those who contend that in audio, it is the implementation that matters. There are clearly people who like products that use panzerholz. I was interested to read that it is not dissimilar from resin impregnated birch plywood. My old speakers had birch plywood cabinet sides, and the rack I built to support my front end gear is made of birch plywood.
Click to expand...

Peter - the SME plinth is one of the most dead plinths of all that I have encountered. They stick a heavy damping pad underneath both parts of the main body.
 
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Audiophile Bill said:
Peter - the SME plinth is one of the most dead plinths of all that I have encountered. They stick a heavy damping pad underneath both parts of the main body.
Click to expand...

Yes, those are two layers of Isodamp material to dampen the ringing of the aluminum. I find it quite effective. I guess one should ask if a turntable plinth should be dead, and why one would want that or not. Lots of people don't like the sound of SME tables. You should have heard the SME in direct comparison to the SP10 mk3. Much more natural sounding with more energy and harmonic content. Lower distortion. Is that dead? I don't know. We all have different tastes, Bill. I am trying to learn more about panzerholz in this thread and its use in audio products. Thank you.
 
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PeterA said:
Yes, many people make the same comment. I guess one should ask if a turntable plinth should be dead, and why one would want that or not. You should have heard the SME in direct comparison to the SP10 mk3. Much more natural sounding with more energy and harmonic content. Lower distortion. Is that dead? I don't know. We all have different tastes, Bill. I am trying to learn more about panzerholz in this thread and its use in audio products. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Peter - I was aiming to point out the fact that you like a heavily damped TT as a means of explaining that damped is something that some people deliberately engineer. The opposite is a heavily coloured overly live tonewood plinth. Reality is people tune to a balance more often than not.

I personally prefer something in the middle having owned a SME and a very live plinth idler. I don’t think one should try to make a TT sound non resonant and dead. I am fairly sure that the “sound” of a TT is what we like if the resonance is a sympathetic resonance.

But imho the discussion herein is rather off piste currently because it needs to advance to a point (slightly more sophisticated) where the debate is about where specifically in an audio component or chain the desideratum is to minimise ringing versus allowing and using it. It isn’t as simple as saying is it good or not.
 
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PeterA said:
David, Would not the effect of a platform under an electronic component depend on how that component is coupled to or de coupled from the platform? My Pass Labs amplifiers with their massive heat sinks do ring when struck or even when I clap my hands loudly in the room. I can hear the resonance bouncing around the room. I can damp that resonance with some rubber or weight on top of the metal heat sinks and case work, but the sound of the system suffers.

I am currently using the stock rubber footers under the amps which sit on ballasted Vibraplane platforms. I imagine that if I replaced the stock rubber footers with metal spikes, some of that energy from the component would be transmitted into the steel ballast plate above the Vibraplane and drain away.

I read elsewhere on WBF recently, that how the component is coupled to the Diaza platform makes a big difference. I should experiment more with my particular amps, but right now I am enjoying the sound without playing with footer types. I wonder if the detrimental effect of the panzerholz on the harmonics that you observed would be altered if those electronics were coupled or decoupled from the panzerholz differently.

For a while back around ten years ago or so, there were a few people who built panzerholz plinths for turntables. Some have moved onto different materials now. My understanding is that panzerholz was used in an attempt to dampen internally generated resonances created by the motors. A few years ago a good friend brought his SP10 MK3 over to my house for an audition. It was in one of these very beautiful panzerholz plinths. He used the same SME arm, tonearm cable and AirTight cartridge that I had on my SME turntable, so the comparison was fairly direct. Compared to my turntable, his table did not convey the instruments' harmonics. Timber suffered and was not accurate. Everything sounded hard and somewhat brittle. The sound was not natural and the music seemed to have lost its soul. It was a cool, dry sound. We were both pretty surprised by the different sound of the two tables.

Your description above about the sound and effect of panzerholz reminded me of this experience, particularly the robbing of harmonic content. I just can't be sure if it was the SP10 turntable itself, the panzerholz plinth, or some combination, but those were the two variables in our fairly direct turntable comparison, and the difference was a clear and distinct lack of harmonics.

I tend to agree with those who contend that in audio, it is the implementation that matters. There are clearly people who like products that use panzerholz. I was interested to read that it is not dissimilar from resin impregnated birch plywood. My old speakers had birch plywood cabinet sides, and the rack I built to support my front end gear is made of birch plywood.
Click to expand...
Peter,
You already experienced the type of losses associated with PH materials. You can easily replicate that dead synthetic sound just by inserting a piece of under your preamp, it’s uncanny how PH robs everything.

While implementation matters you can’t change the nature of materials they do what they do. You should also acknowledge that there probably are a lot more crappy equipment than good ones and great ones are very few and far in between and everyone makes mistakes from time to time so just looking at which company is using what means nothing, you need to verify by yourself.

Coupling and decoupling are overused words in high end, people follow these concepts blindly as if it’s gospel without using their own common sense. I wonder how many actually consider what purpose coupling and decoupling serve? Does either method enhance, detract or is benign in preserving the equipment’s qualities and characteristic. If a manufacturer is worth his salt they already picked the right feet for their equipment, why mess with the design. There’s too much of a herd mentality in this hobby and people buy into ridiculous concepts just because someone else did or a maker’s claims. You should always consider that people are fallible. I might get flamed again for saying all this or criticized because some ridiculous line is drawn in some imaginary sandbox. How absurd to tell someone that they shouldn’t monitor their own industry while idiots and the physically deaf are the righteous when faced with their own ignorance. Sadly this is the state of affairs even here. If we start peeling the onion you’ll find out that foundation components are also another can of worms, let’s see how the thread progresses beyond people posting what others are doing as if its some sort of general validation.

david
 
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If placing a panzerholz platform under a component results in a sound that is devoid of harmonics and micro dynamics, is the panzerholz responsible or is the component's innate character simply becoming more apparent? Measured results might shed some light.
 
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bazelio said:
If placing a panzerholz platform under a component is said to create a resulting sound that is devoid of harmonics and micro dynamics, is the panzerholz responsible or is the component's innate character simply becoming more apparent? Measured results might shed some light.
Click to expand...

I would like to see measurements in this manner too. It actually also insinuates that the component itself is rather poorly designed In some ways since it is so drastically influenced by ANY substrate on which it rests. I would hope the component is as resistant as possible as to whether it is on a certain brand of rack that uses x material etc. I know that in reality some gear is more susceptible than others in this regard. Kedar and I used to joke about certain amps being “great” for Mooking cos the case was so thin and resonant.
 
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bazelio said:
If placing a panzerholz platform under a component is said to create a resulting sound that is devoid of harmonics and micro dynamics, is the panzerholz responsible or is the component's innate character simply becoming more apparent? Measured results might shed some light.
Click to expand...

Well that is a very interesting implication all by itself isnt it. Unfortunately I can tell you you will not measure any change in frequency response of the output signal of the device, unless it is in fact a musical instrument, where panzerholz can be deliberately used as a low pass filter. Arguably turntables would be very sensitive to that aswell as they convert vibrations to an electrical signal.

Going from there, there are quite a few components creating an electrical signal when subjected to vibrations. Crystals and capacitors for example. Now that should simply count as distortion, but then again, distortion can be curved into something additive which people may find appealing. Consider tube harmonics for a dead beat horse example.
 
howiebrou said:
Ron,

It seems quite a few speaker companies like Wilson, Meridian, Rockport, Kaiser present their cabinets as being inert as is possible including the use of panzerholz and composites whilst others such as Sonus Faber do the opposite and state that they don't try and deaden the wooden cabinets but make it part of the sound, resonance and all? Then their are the metal speakers like YG and Stenheim.

Which school is correct i have no idea. I'm sure it is partly personal preference and system balance dependent.
Click to expand...

Inert means that does not react in anyway - something that is impossible. Wilson uses different type of materials in different sections of the cabinet - surely to tune the speaker. Old Sonus Faber cabinets are intrinsically very different from their current top models.
 
howiebrou said:
Ron,

It seems quite a few speaker companies like Wilson, Meridian, Rockport, Kaiser present their cabinets as being inert as is possible including the use of panzerholz and composites whilst others such as Sonus Faber do the opposite and state that they don't try and deaden the wooden cabinets but make it part of the sound, resonance and all? Then their are the metal speakers like YG and Stenheim.

Which school is correct i have no idea. I'm sure it is partly personal preference and system balance dependent.
Click to expand...

The lesser the cabinet the better, which is why panels are so good. Both from a sonic perspective and from a cost perspective. The problem with lack of cabinet is loss of bass and oomph. But having large dual woofers loaded in open front loaded horns gets past that. Wood is good
 
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