Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

[PeterA]

Coupling and decoupling are overused words in high end, people follow these concepts blindly as if it’s gospel without using their own common sense. I wonder how many actually consider what purpose coupling and decoupling serve? Does either method enhance, detract or is benign in preserving the equipment’s qualities and characteristic. If a manufacturer is worth his salt they already picked the right feet for their equipment, why mess with the design.

david

David, I agree that in general, I'd rather not mess with a particular design. I suppose the first reason is that the manufacturer has tested and listened to the design as it is presented and sold to the customer. However, I have found that pneumatic isolation under my components does improve the sound.

My question about coupling or decoupling a component to the platform below it is rather basic. If the platform is designed to attenuate the resonances within a given component, it would seem to me the platform would be more able to do so if the component's vibrations had a way to reach the platform. Coupling the two together would seem to be more effective at this than decoupling the two. The stock rubber footers under my preamp would seem to hinder that effort and render such a platform less effective, but that is just a guess.

Perhaps Taiko Audio could comment on this issue.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I've heard a fantastic cart, Aidas in Panz body. Can't say thiness or timbral imbalance was audible, just a nice balanced sound w very low noise flr.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

David, I agree that in general, I'd rather not mess with a particular design. I suppose the first reason is that the manufacturer has tested and listened to the design as it is presented and sold to the customer. However, I have found that pneumatic isolation under my components does improve the sound.

My question about coupling or decoupling a component to the platform below it is rather basic. If the platform is designed to attenuate the resonances within a given component, it would seem to me the platform would be more able to do so if the component's vibrations had a way to reach the platform. Coupling the two together would seem to be more effective at this than decoupling the two. The stock rubber footers under my preamp would seem to hinder that effort and render such a platform less effective, but that is just a guess.

Perhaps Taiko Audio could comment on this issue.

Hi Peter,

Yes Emile recommends exactly as you stated - you are correct. You would need to bypass those rubber feet.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I've heard a fantastic cart, Aidas in Panz body. Can't say thiness or timbral imbalance was audible, just a nice balanced sound w very low noise flr.

Anamighty sound seem to sell and recommend panzer based headshells alongside more exotic hardwoods like snake wood. I love the look of snakewood though lol.

 

[bazelio]

Well that is a very interesting implication all by itself isnt it. Unfortunately I can tell you you will not measure any change in frequency response of the output signal of the device, unless it is in fact a musical instrument, where panzerholz can be deliberately used as a low pass filter. Arguably turntables would be very sensitive to that aswell as they convert vibrations to an electrical signal.

Going from there, there are quite a few components creating an electrical signal when subjected to vibrations. Crystals and capacitors for example. Now that should simply count as distortion, but then again, distortion can be curved into something additive which people may find appealing. Consider tube harmonics for a dead beat horse example.

I don't think we're considering the affect of a panzerholz base on overall frequency response - certainly not in a macro sense. But to the extent that resonances from a substrate may have an influence on the final waveform in terms of small cancellations, then it'd be interesting to see where in the audio band.

 

[bazelio]

Hi Peter,

Yes Emile recommends exactly as you stated - you are correct. You would need to bypass those rubber feet.

@Tango - did you set the Lamm amps directly on the Daiza, or did you use some sort of coupler to bypass the Lamm feet?

 

[Taiko Audio]

The stock rubber footers under my preamp would seem to hinder that effort and render such a platform less effective, but that is just a guess.

Perhaps Taiko Audio could comment on this issue.

Any compliant material combined with mass creates a low pass filter. The corner frequency of a resonant system with small stiff rubber footers I would expect to be pretty high up meaning it would not be a very effective filter. They do however have an “impedance” impeding vibration transfer.

So yes rubber footers would diminish effectiveness of panzerholz used as a damper, and introduce an element of unpredictability as you can get a very uneven frequency respons as you are stacking filters.

 

[DaveC]

Only because Artesania use thermoplastic screws in their racks too...

If your speakers use steel screws to fasten the drivers to the cabinets you can try replacing them with brass, I'm sure you'll notice a difference. I haven't done that with my S-1EX yet, I need to go to the hardware store! I'd be a little afraid to break plastic screws off in the speaker, which would be a big pita, but might be worth trying if you're very careful.

Also, it's not a bad idea to torque your driver bolts evenly and check torque after some time has passed especially if it's a new speaker, it's very common for one screw to lose a little clamping force and it can be audible.

 

[DaveC]

Well that is a very interesting implication all by itself isnt it. Unfortunately I can tell you you will not measure any change in frequency response of the output signal of the device, unless it is in fact a musical instrument, where panzerholz can be deliberately used as a low pass filter. Arguably turntables would be very sensitive to that aswell as they convert vibrations to an electrical signal.

Going from there, there are quite a few components creating an electrical signal when subjected to vibrations. Crystals and capacitors for example. Now that should simply count as distortion, but then again, distortion can be curved into something additive which people may find appealing. Consider tube harmonics for a dead beat horse example.

I agree measuring the phenomenon is not going to work.

I think the system and it's components form a very complicated electromechanical feedback device when playing music, and with the case of vinyl and tubes this is undeniable, but I think it happens on a lower level with other components and that some of this could effect the sound in a negative way. In any case it seems like some materials, generally soft ones like sorbothane, tend to make the sound dull and lifeless, even when used on components "out of the chain" like AC power distribution. Maybe damping vibration too much is bad?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

If your speakers use steel screws to fasten the drivers to the cabinets you can try replacing them with brass, I'm sure you'll notice a difference. I haven't done that with my S-1EX yet, I need to go to the hardware store! I'd be a little afraid to break plastic screws off in the speaker, which would be a big pita, but might be worth trying if you're very careful.

Also, it's not a bad idea to torque your driver bolts evenly and check torque after some time has passed especially if it's a new speaker, it's very common for one screw to lose a little clamping force and it can be audible.

Funnily enough I am testing bolts this evening. I have a whole bunch of brass ones to go in. I like the aesthetic with my horns but keen to hear if any auditory benefit.

 

[Taiko Audio]

generally soft ones like sorbothane, tend to make the sound dull and lifeless, even when used on components "out of the chain" like AC power distribution.

The problem with those is they introduce a very high frequency peak, this can easily be +20dB, also the cutoff frequency can be rather high, like 100Hz or higher, due to often limited mass. So then you would actually introduce a resonance of +20dB at 100Hz above which it just rolls off with a normal filter slope, so actual “isolation” starts at a much higher frequency. This can most definately make the sound muddy / dull / lifeless. In this case the isolation is not the culprit, but the self resonance of the created filter is.

 

[Rhapsody]

Panzerholz is made from Beech not Birch wood. Kaiser uses Titanium screws in their speakers.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I agree measuring the phenomenon is not going to work.

We are actually considering the purchase of a laser vibrometer as low frequency accelerometer accuracy is determined by the weight of the measurement head, but the heavier the head, the more it influences that what you are trying to measure.
Now if you really want to do it right the laser must have an accelerometer attached to it as if you are measuring while playing music, the soundwaves will impact your results, so you need to measure and apply corrections.
You can already see we will start to lose accuracy in other areas then, making this a very daunting exercise alltogether.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Panzerholz is made from Beech not Birch wood. Kaiser uses Titanium screws in their speakers.

It is! The variant we use is made out from betula oycoviensis, aka european white birch though. But we don’t buy at blomberg (delignit) anymore.

 

[tima]

What is the resonant frequency of panzerholz?

 

[Taiko Audio]

What is the resonant frequency of panzerholz?

The resonant frequencies are defined by physical dimensions, weight, properties, shape etc.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Here is a nice indicative read:

http://www.noyceguitars.com/Technotes/Articles/T2.html

For that size I would put panzerholz in at a lower resonance frequency. For as far as it’s capable of resonating that is.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My Zus are fitted w Arya Audio Revopods footers, sited on plain ol' non audiophile Delignet Panzerholz. This discussion has prompted me to trial the Revopod'ed Zus without the Panz.

Will get onto that tmrw.

Let it never be said I don't go the extra mile.

 

[NorthStar]

Panzerholz is made from Beech not Birch wood. Kaiser uses Titanium screws in their speakers.

Bob you are right ...
• http://www.bkbindustrial.com/delignit-panzerholz

Mike Lavigne showed one of those (crop circle) @ his place...quite heavy ...

There are quite few turntables using the material in their engineering design ...

The plinth ...

Building speaker's cabinets ...

Cartridges ...

 

[Folsom]

Whether from the point of view of musicians or the point of view of audiophiles I would think it not controversial to suggest that certain woods have inherent characteristics that are good for use in musical instruments and in audio components. Panzerholz seems to be one such type of wood.

It's a bit more complicated than whether something is good. Firstly I wouldn't suggest hitting panzer wood with a hammer to be the best test of how it'll perform for all sonics. None of us have hammers that play to the music. Sound waves are different than physical impacts. And just because a material might "ring" under isolated conditions doesn't mean it does in use. Here's a fun example, take a TT platter that's metal, tap it good, it'll make a sound. Put a rubber mat on it, tap it and you get nothing at all. The physics of application are more extensive than just the singular material. That's why, as you are correct, that musical instruments must use what's right for them, but these things are more of a recipe than just singular goodness.

The thing about any material is that it'll have some basic properties. It'll have natural resonances, and ranges where it's more prone to it (transmitting). Then it'll have ranges where it doesn't take anything in (reflect). And it'll have ranges where it can dissipate (dampen). Does the Panzer universally dampen? Unlikely. All the tests I see tend to be focused around the material itself. If you put it under something one should be asking how much it reflects. Why? Well it's extremely dense, and that's what really heavy dense materials tend to do... If you put a turntable on top of a 1000lb hunk of steel it's going to reflect, it won't absorb anything. You can couple to it for benefits, and it'll act as a stop between other things that would come from the floor, but it doesn't dissipate anything we deal with. PH isn't metal, but it still plays by some rules. What are those rules? I haven't seen much to indicate them except the material itself isn't very absorptive. For it to work well in any application I'd assume the need for other materials, like all other things that work to dissipate vibrations. But given the anecdotal stories I can't help but wonder if it's mainly reflective...