Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, I've only spent 10 mins listening, just wanted an early impression. I'm already 3" higher than stock spikes on floor which is the standard install, so losing the 1.5" of the Panz still leaves my tweeter higher than normal position. And as you say, that greater upper mids/treble articulation is a good thing.

As w changes to bass from altering footers (in my situation IsoAcoustics Gaias = bad, Revopods = good), I'm going to carefully consider whether this extra high frequencies energy/articulation is indeed natural or artificial enhanced edginess. I believe it's natural, but only a couple of days listening, especially to strings, cymbals, percussion, will tell me.

 

[marty]

whatever wood does, i guess i like it plenty.

So did the folks who built the Musikverein, Concertgebouw, Barbican, Berliner Philharmonie, Carnegie, Boston Symphony Hall, Steinways and Bosendorfers, Stradivarius and Guarneri and a myriad of other instruments.

I'd say you're in good company, Mike.

 

[spiritofmusic]

If my finding is an ongoing one, and I eliminate the Panz under my Zus, then the idea I had of switching my cdp to the Stacore Basic+, and resiting the balanced power transformer that was on it to a Revopods/Panz combo, is no more, will seriously consider a Stacore Intro spiked platform instead.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I've only spent 10 mins listening, just wanted an early impression. I'm already 3" higher than stock spikes on floor which is the standard install, so losing the 1.5" of the Panz still leaves my tweeter higher than normal position. And as you say, that greater upper mids/treble articulation is a good thing.

As w changes to bass from altering footers (in my situation IsoAcoustics Gaias = bad, Revopods = good), I'm going to carefully consider whether this extra high frequencies energy/articulation is indeed natural or artificial enhanced edginess. I believe it's natural, but only a couple of days listening, especially to strings, cymbals, percussion, will tell me.

Marc, my only point is that you may be hearing changes based in part on the new speaker and tweeter height and attributing them to the removal of the platforms under your speakers. Tweeter height can be very important with some speakers to one's impression of the overall sound. I caution you not to discount its role in what you are hearing. There may also be some effect with the drivers being closer to your floor and comb filtering. What you are doing may not be as simple as just removing some panzerholz from the equation.

 

[Ron Resnick]

why do we need to conflate audio components and musical instruments in the first place?

I did not think I was conflating them; I was intending to make a parallel, and not a mixed, point. I was trying to posit the friendly conjecture that if some woods are good for musical instruments then maybe other woods are good for audio components.

 

[Ron Resnick]

So did the folks who built the Musikverein, Concertgebouw, Barbican, Berliner Philharmonie, Carnegie, Boston Symphony Hall, Steinways and Bosendorfers, Stradivarius and Guarneri and a myriad of other instruments.

I'd say you're in good company, Mike.

I see loads of wood at Walt Disney Concert Hall.

Mike’s room is one reason I decided to wallpaper my listening room walls with 3/4” solid walnut.

I don’t know about wood and audio components, but I believe in the acoustics of wood walls for listening rooms.

 

[NorthStar]

I see a lot of wood here ...

 

[bonzo75]

many audiophiles want a wood 'effect' involved somewhere in their signal path. opinion is that it's musical. analogous to tubes. nothing new.

lots of manufacturers show their wood cabinet and a wood instrument in advertising. a message they are sending.

not new concepts. it's reality........not anything one needs to agree with.

for myself i really don't consciously think about wood in my system, but likely have more than anyone by far. my Adona racks use heavy granite/cherry shelves, my speakers weigh 3000 pounds, and each tower is 2000 layers of baltic birch. + 18 Dazia's.......so far. my room walls are all finished cabinetry including my ceiling. the front third of the floor is hardwood.

whatever wood does, i guess i like it plenty.

The speakers I am targeting via DIY are also made of birch. No idea of difference between birch and Baltic birch. I guess if I wanted to spend more they could be made of ebony or mahogany or some sort of cello tone wood. But birch I heard so birch it bill be. Not only the big front loaded horn cabinet for two 15 inchers but also the horn is made of wood.

My favorite timbre comes from whatever yamamura is using in Pietro's speaker, which seems to be a mix of cork and wood, not sure, I forgot.

 

[KeithR]

i don't know how this thread drifted from panzerholz amp stands to concert halls

anyways, unsubscribed.

 

[tima]

Tim, what about the wood and lacquer finish in your favorite cartridge?

Ha ! Good point. I was warned quite seriously: "Barely tighten those headshell screws." The early versions of several MS wood varietals had threaded metal inserts for accepting the mounting bolts. The inserts kept falling out, so now one threads into native wood.

The Benz LP S is another wood body cartridge. It uses Ebony, a wood that is used in the manufacture of musical instruments, eg. clarinets & oboes.

Grados, Koetsus ... etc.

 

[tima]

many audiophiles want a wood 'effect' involved somewhere in their signal path. opinion is that it's musical. analogous to tubes. nothing new.

Beyond saying it's the effect of wood somewhere in the signal path: What is a/the "wood effect". Is it a sonic characteristic? Would you pls describe it with words other than "musical".

 

[bazelio]

This calls for a pic of my wood. Haven't had this wood long...

 

[ddk]

David, I agree that in general, I'd rather not mess with a particular design. I suppose the first reason is that the manufacturer has tested and listened to the design as it is presented and sold to the customer. However, I have found that pneumatic isolation under my components does improve the sound.

My question about coupling or decoupling a component to the platform below it is rather basic. If the platform is designed to attenuate the resonances within a given component, it would seem to me the platform would be more able to do so if the component's vibrations had a way to reach the platform. Coupling the two together would seem to be more effective at this than decoupling the two. The stock rubber footers under my preamp would seem to hinder that effort and render such a platform less effective, but that is just a guess.

Perhaps Taiko Audio could comment on this issue.

Physical isolation of components is another interesting idea in highend, claims from some manufacturers of these so called isolation designs makes me wonder if audiophiles have all moved near an active volcano and their chachkis will stop an earthquake. It’s an amp, speaker or preamp what are you isolating it from? How much vibration is too much that you need isolation from? Is isolation doing anything at all? In the case of air your hearing it’s damping effects in the electronics, nothing to do with isolation. If you prefer the sound when your equipment is dampened so be it but understand what’s going on and make informed choices.
david

 

[Uk Paul]

Just to add some to the Panzerholz theme, the Aidas Panzerholz Diamond has a body from er, well, Panzerholz.. Aidas use various body materials in the cartridges, which were selected over a considerable test period, some of which share the same motor assembly. This Panzerholz sounds fantastic

 

[Audiophile Bill]

The speakers I am targeting via DIY are also made of birch. No idea of difference between birch and Baltic birch. I guess if I wanted to spend more they could be made of ebony or mahogany or some sort of cello tone wood. But birch I heard so birch it bill be. Not only the big front loaded horn cabinet for two 15 inchers but also the horn is made of wood.

My favorite timbre comes from whatever yamamura is using in Pietro's speaker, which seems to be a mix of cork and wood, not sure, I forgot.

Hey Ked. Um those Altec cabs made in ebony will cost you about min £20k in timber before you start. Mahogany will be cheaper but still a lot. You also have the major issue of how to curve these to form the horn. You could build a hybrid cabinet though (like an instrument) with various woods.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

This calls for a pic of my wood. Haven't had this wood long...

I think that the Kuzma is ebony (like the Shun Mook in a material sense)

 

[tima]

Physical isolation of components is another interesting idea in highend, claims from some manufacturers of these so called isolation designs makes me wonder if audiophiles have all moved near an active volcano and their chachkis will stop an earthquake. It’s an amp, speaker or preamp what are you isolating it from? How much vibration is too much that you need isolation from? Is isolation doing anything at all? In the case of air your hearing it’s damping effects in the electronics, nothing to do with isolation. If you prefer the sound when your equipment is dampened so be it but understand what’s going on and make informed choices.
david

The best isolation (the only true isolation?) is having your component suspended in a box of vacuum. Some folks will move components to another room - that isolates them somewhat from speaker originated vibration though they're still subject to the general environment. Planet Earth vibrates around three cycles per second.

My sense is panzerholz is not an isolating device or means. If the Daiza is an example, panzerholz wants to couple snuggly to its component. Panzerholz has a resonance frequency potential. The component has a resonance frequency potential. Put the two together and their resonance frequencies will change.

Given the frequency range of music, odds are that at some points in time the music's frequencies will match those of the panzerholz and the component (and its components), amplifying and directing their energy into each other at various speeds resulting in larger more complex vibrations.This is not isolation. It will cause the system's sound to change. You could call it a veil. You might like the change in sound. You may not. This is not unique to panzerholz. Holds for any board or material you snuggle up to your component although the results are likely unique based on the material selected.

 

[microstrip]

I did not think I was conflating them; I was intending to make a parallel, and not a mixed, point. I was trying to posit the friendly conjecture that if some woods are good for musical instruments then maybe other woods are good for audio components.

I would say anti-parallel - the objectives of music instruments and concert halls are the opposite to those of our listening rooms. Any book on listening room acoustics explains it. The recording should capture the acoustics of the concert hall, the listening room should have a neutral contribution to avoid overlapping over the small cues that bring us the concert hall in our rooms. This does not preclude the use of wood in listening rooms - as usually the implementation can surpass the material being used.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Unfortunately I'm cramped for time today, about to depart for the Hans Zimmer concert at the Ziggodome in The Netherlands tonight. We have managed to acquire mixing console seats. Very exciting.

Let me just add the relationship between capacitors and vibration to this discussion.
1) A voltage applied to a capacitor causes it to vibrate.
2) Vibration applied to a capacitor causes it to generate a voltage.

It should be clear that neither of these are desirable traits in our electronics.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Marc, my only point is that you may be hearing changes based in part on the new speaker and tweeter height and attributing them to the removal of the platforms under your speakers. Tweeter height can be very important with some speakers to one's impression of the overall sound. I caution you not to discount its role in what you are hearing. There may also be some effect with the drivers being closer to your floor and comb filtering. What you are doing may not be as simple as just removing some panzerholz from the equation.

Peter, understood. No way to confirm/deny this. It's not the simple comparison Tang has of Lamms with/without the Daizas.

For me it's a straight Q of, is the sound better, and if it is different, does it feel like a substantial change, that would suggest not just the ergonomic result of removing the Panz (tweeter 1.5" lower), but also of the effects of the Panz itself.

Remember Peter, the tweeters were more at ear level with the Panz than they are now. That would suggest the extra bite in treble is more to do with the absence of the Panz, than the ergonomic height change (alone).