Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

[Rhapsody]

I know Bob, I was kidding.

david

 

[tima]

I'm commenting on the idea of an audiophile preference for having a wood cabinet or shelf somewhere in the system, not on it's sonic signature. and i'm not passing judgement on that concept.

Thanks for that follow-up. I was thrown off by 'signal path'. Agree with the desirability of wood as you describe.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Dear WBF Community,

We are fully open to sharing our experiences, designs, theory and practical applications surrounding them. We spend considerable time doing so which generally seems to be appreciated. However we will not engage in endless conversation involving personal bias not open to argumentation or discussion. We are completely open to, and welcome, criticism to ideas and applications, and will happily engage in discussing them, as long as this is a 2 way street. High end audio is an infinitely interesting field where measurements do not always match practical results, although it could be argued we simply do not know what we should measure, and measurements can be subject to error aswell.

We are here to share and learn. I will post some information here, in installments as we are a very busy little company, but will not reply to unfounded argumentation.

 

[Taiko Audio]

There are different grades and qualities of "panzerholz" available. The industry description is "phenolic glued plywood", there are differences in grain orientation, wood used, wood quality selection grade, amount of compression and composite glue used.

This is an example of "bad quality", it is supposed to be bulletproof but we had a 9mm round fired at it at a local shooting range and it passed through. It is a bit close to the edge of the board but it should still not have passed through, this is delignit panzerholz btw:



This is a photo of 3 variants with different wood layer thicknesses, from top to bottom: 5mm, 3mm, 1mm:



The 5mm is a bit on the "warm" side of neutral, even a bit "warmer" sounding then Bamboo ply, the 3mm we consider to be fairly neutral sounding, the 1mm we rate on the "cold" side of neutral.

More to follow later with our analysis of the cause of the differences in sound.

 

[Ovenmitt]

I loved the Reed wood tonearm resonance data when I first saw it some time ago. I still do as I think there is a Reed tonearm in my future for a variety of reasons. This is very nice data I can wrap my arms around! But examination of the data leads to more questions than it answers, at least for me.

1) To begin, the control response of the system is missing. What is the response of the system without any tonearm? That's an important control and without it, what the tonearm is doing or contributing to the result cannot be meaningfully interpreted.
2) What does the "acoustic properties under perfect conditions" mean exactly? Why is a 40dB rise from 0.5 to 0 Hz "perfect"?
3) Let's assume that the "perfect" response is as they say; namely perfect (translation= most desirable?) Well, then what do we make of an arm such as cocobolo that is up 20dB from "perfect" at 0.5Hz and down 20dB from "perfect" at 0.2 Hz? Is this good or bad?
4) Pick any response for any of the illustrated woods? What is the sonic effect of the responses shown? In my system, or any system, is the idea to re-create the "perfect" response with your chosen tonearm wood? I have no earthly idea. Do I want a response typified by Wenge or Red Cedar, or other? Pernambuco anyone?
5) Seems to me the only way to tell is to try one and see if you like what you hear. This is the classic "ice-cream theory" of choosing audio gear. (i.e. there's vanilla, chocolate and strawberry. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice). I don't see any shortcut around that approach for picking your Reed tonearm wood.

So the data is the data. I don't have any reason to doubt the methodology, but I have no idea what it really represents, Nor do I know what to make of the data presented for the various woods in terms of what might be best in my system. No doubt the woods may all sound slightly different. But the fact that we are indeed dealing with a system just adds to the complexity of the issue. Wood "A" might sound best with cartridge "X" , but wood "B" might sound better with cartridge "Y", etc. What guidance other than listening is there to figure that out?

The variation for most of these woods is in the range of 0 to 1 Hz. Does that truly matter in most systems, for which we can assume has a lower limit of reproduction significantly above 1 Hz? Wish I knew. If someone told me they chose cocobolo because they liked the color and it sounded good in their system, it would be hard for me to find fault with that rationale despite any of the data generated by Reed for the various tonearm woods.

I wish it were easier than that to know the correct choice for tonearm wood for a Reed. If anyone has other insights that might be helpful, I hope you'll share them.

Marty, FWIW, I choose a Reed 3 point in ebony for my TT - it’s a 12 inch model. I chose ebony because I have ebony in other parts of the TT, so it matches. I’m also a guitar player and tend to like ebony in certain parts of some of my guitars; namely the fretboard and bridge on my Martin acoustics.... no science at all in my decision, lol. I do have to say that I really love the tonearm though!

 

[spiritofmusic]

There are different grades and qualities of "panzerholz" available. The industry description is "phenolic glued plywood", there are differences in grain orientation, wood used, wood quality selection grade, amount of compression and composite glue used.

This is an example of "bad quality", it is supposed to be bulletproof but we had a 9mm round fired at it at a local shooting range and it passed through. It is a bit close to the edge of the board but it should still not have passed through, this is delignit panzerholz btw:

View attachment 58818

This is a photo of 3 variants with different wood layer thicknesses, from top to bottom: 5mm, 3mm, 1mm:

View attachment 58819

The 5mm is a bit on the "warm" side of neutral, even a bit "warmer" sounding then Bamboo ply, the 3mm we consider to be fairly neutral sounding, the 1mm we rate on the "cold" side of neutral.

More to follow later with our analysis of the cause of the differences in sound.

Emile, I did have two pieces of Delignet in my system, not in use now. Strangely enough, it's protection on gunfire isn't a thing I discussed w the UK rep lol.

Now, had I been a US customer...

 

[LL21]

Dear WBF Community,

We are fully open to sharing our experiences, designs, theory and practical applications surrounding them. We spend considerable time doing so which generally seems to be appreciated. However we will not engage in endless conversation involving personal bias not open to argumentation or discussion. We are completely open to, and welcome, criticism to ideas and applications, and will happily engage in discussing them, as long as this is a 2 way street. High end audio is an infinitely interesting field where measurements do not always match practical results, although it could be argued we simply do not know what we should measure, and measurements can be subject to error aswell.

We are here to share and learn. I will post some information here, in installments as we are a very busy little company, but will not reply to unfounded argumentation.

Well said. Very well said. Thank you for your time.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I did not get around to posting more information but just stumbled upon a review on panzerholz platforms made by Artesania:
https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/re...rtesania-organic-line-modular-floor-platform/

 

[CKKeung]

I did not get around to posting more information but just stumbled upon a review on panzerholz platforms made by Artesania:
https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/re...rtesania-organic-line-modular-floor-platform/

Hello Emile,
Your Diaza is priced much much lower.
IMHO it's a best-buy!

 

[kach22i]

Panzerholz seems to be a topic of interest. Little was resolved earlier.

I never head of it before this thread, and when looking it up I found an adjacent competitor.

http://mockingbirddistribution.com/pyon-sound/picawood/

The only way that Pyon could make fine objects, like arm tubes and headshells, dimensionally stable, was to pursue a structure with many more alternating layers. With standard products, like Panzerholz, much thicker laminations mean there is less stability when using the product on a very small-scale. When you release the confining tension of various layers, above and below, natural wood fibers will start to relax somewhat. This is not a problem with large objects, like plinths, or bullet proof doors, but can create issues when trying to guarantee dimensions that will not change. With Picawood, many thinner plies are used, and are pressed at higher pressures for a longer time. The result is something that it stable, even in very small objects.

Panzerholz VS Picawood:
One is intended for bullet proof doors, the other for audio.

I've watched some of my maple butcher-block shelves come apart, and this line of products looks like a huge improvement.

Thinking it's an improvement over Baltic-Birtch plywood that I've used in projects as well.

 

[PeterA]

Kach, I made a 17 ply per inch baltic birch plywood rack to match my former speaker cabinets. I never had any issues with this material. Have you had problems with your Baltic-Birch plywood projects?

What kind of projects would you use the Picawood for?

 

[sbo6]

Just came upon this topic, great information. Curious if anyone has feedback on the Clearaudio TTs with Panzerholz?

 

[howiebrou]

Just came upon this topic, great information. Curious if anyone has feedback on the Clearaudio TTs with Panzerholz?

I have a CA TT with Panzerholz. Not sure I can discern what it contributes since it's built into the chassis.

 

[kach22i]

Kach, I made a 17 ply per inch baltic birch plywood rack to match my former speaker cabinets. I never had any issues with this material. Have you had problems with your Baltic-Birch plywood projects?

What kind of projects would you use the Picawood for?

Baltic Birch I've used has had no audio or furniture issues. Been getting 4' x 8' x 3/4" sheets locally (processed in Russia) in lieu of 5'x5' sheets I've read about.

Locally acquired butcher block no issues, old stuff left outdoors at one time continues to degrade.

Conclusion, do not store indoor wood outdoors even if covered.

Do not leave on basement floor either.

 

[Loheswaran]

My experience with Panzerholz is that it’s detrimental to a rich high resolution system and its ill effects are immediate and obvious. Of course in a low resolution system one isn’t going to miss what wasn’t there to begin with. The impact of panzerholz when used for platform material under electronics is near total loss of harmonics, micro and macro dynamics and as a result tone and timber also suffer. The negative effects were consistent with all the electronics I tested the shelves with and the same general losses were noted in my recent encounter with the Daiza platform and an Artezania rack. Here’s the back story to it all.

We used Panzerholz years ago in construction projects, one of its qualities aside from strength was relative ease of finishing and looked like an ideal product to use for shelves and amp stands and I had some made for personal use by the same Italian firm that manufactured our exhibition furniture. In use my initial reaction was neutral but I was uncomfortable with my system knowing that something was off. There was that total lack of harmonics and micro and macro resolution I mentioned above, what remained seemed poignant and hifi, hard bone and no meat. It took a while but after making a couple of Garrard plinthsI figured out that the culprit was Panzerholz. Some further tests confirmed my suspicions.

david

Hi David

Did you ever do what CLEARAUDIO do and sandwich the Panzerholz? They also have internal pockets that contain a resin and either bearings or lead shot.

My reading suggests that Panzerholz happens to be exceptionally good at damping/absorbtion of resonance over a relatively large frequency spectrum. To make it work in a plinth it ought to be sandwiched between metal plates to create the structure like that used in planes - constrained layer.

My own understanding/analogy comparison is that its a bit like running up a sand dune - it absorbs all your energy - which isn't always a good thing.

Thanks

Loheswaran (the man from the Black Hole)

 

[ddk]

Hi David

Did you ever do what CLEARAUDIO do and sandwich the Panzerholz? They also have internal pockets that contain a resin and either bearings or lead shot.

My reading suggests that Panzerholz happens to be exceptionally good at damping/absorbtion of resonance over a relatively large frequency spectrum. To make it work in a plinth it ought to be sandwiched between metal plates to create the structure like that used in planes - constrained layer.

My own understanding/analogy comparison is that its a bit like running up a sand dune - it absorbs all your energy - which isn't always a good thing.

Thanks

Loheswaran (the man from the Black Hole)

No, I already knew how CA turntables sound. I haven't come across any applications that I can say panzerholtz worked great. I know it's being used by some manufacturers and I haven't heard them all but don't care for what I have.

david

 

[Loheswaran]

No, I already knew how CA turntables sound. I haven't come across any applications that I can say panzerholtz worked great. I know it's being used by some manufacturers and I haven't heard them all but don't care for what I have.

david

Out of interest what do you think makes the best material for audio shelves?
I know the guys at Lavardin think that plywood (boring and unsexy I know) is in fact the best material

 

[ddk]

Out of interest what do you think makes the best material for audio shelves?
I know the guys at Lavardin think that plywood (boring and unsexy I know) is in fact the best material

It depends on the structure holding the shelves too, nothing works in isolation. There are a number of very good products out there made with elastomers, dense natural woods, metals, carbon fiber and proprietary materials as well as very poor ones made with the same materials. My own preference is for less dampened shelves that can be dampened by end user to taste and according to system, hence why I used thick steel plates for the Nothing Rack.

david

 

[Loheswaran]

It depends on the structure holding the shelves too, nothing works in isolation. There are a number of very good products out there made with elastomers, dense natural woods, metals, carbon fiber and proprietary materials as well as very poor ones made with the same materials. My own preference is for less dampened shelves that can be dampened by end user to taste and according to system, hence why I used thick steel plates for the Nothing Rack.

david

I see the logic - it makes no sense that one size fits all - get to the ballpark then tune. I am just constructing a simple rack using a simple steel frame and plywoood construction that I can fiddle with and modify.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hmmm ... you pinged my scepticism with that one Ron. I'm taking it as 'friendly conjecture'. But if you have more info, pls share. Don't know if your comment is not controversial, but I did not take it for granted.

Couldn't find any references to violins, violas, cellos, basses, clarinets, recorders, lyres, oboes, bassoons basset horns, etc. etc. made from Panzerholz®

I did see where the Delignit Brand (maker of panzerholz) sells their Delignit® wood product for use in piano rim panels. Now all this stuff from Delignit is translation from their native German, so it's a bit awkward (for me anyway). I'm assuming when they say rim panel they refer to what is known as the piano rim, viz. the spine, bentside and tail of a grand piano- the outside rim, usually laminated - not the sounding board. Uprights have rims too.

Presuming from Delignit having that use for their Delignit product (which is not panzerholz but some other engineered wood) they have seen it actually used for piano rims. But I couldn't find reference to any pianos claiming to use it - maybe it's a trade secret. We know companies have made pianos for hundreds of years without it. It's a possible choice. Not sure that is sufficient to claim panzerholz is "good for use in musical instruments." Imo, panzerholz audiophle devotees ought make its case on its merits without association to musical instruments. But I do understand why some are inclined to make the association.

I don't know if its fair to trees to call panzerholz wood. It does have wood in it. Being a proprietary product there is some mystery to it. Guess we can assume that when someone refers to it as wood they mean engineered wood.

Post #8 corrected: ". . . certain woods have inherent characteristics that are good for use in musical instruments or in audio components. Panzerholz seems to be one such type of wood."