Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

[ddk]

Post #8 corrected: ". . . certain woods have inherent characteristics that are good for use in musical instruments or in audio components. Panzerholz seems to be one such type of wood."

There are many tt’s made out of cheap particleboard too, does that mean that it’s good for sound? How many cheap tt’s made from mdf? Do you believe either is “good” for Audio?

david

 

[Ron Resnick]

There are many tt’s made out of cheap particleboard too, does that mean that it’s good for sound? How many cheap tt’s made from mdf? Do you believe either is “good” for Audio?

david

Fair enough. I wrote "seems" because I have no experience myself. My conjecture (thank you, Tima) was based on Taiko's reports and on the reports of Taiko's customers.

 

[ALF]

Fair enough. I wrote "seems" because I have no experience myself. My conjecture (thank you, Tima) was based on Taiko's reports and on the reports of Taiko's customers.

IMHO and experience Emile is really a good source...David is pretty good too, except for plywood applications .

vbw,
-a

 

[microstrip]

Post #8 corrected: ". . . certain woods have inherent characteristics that are good for use in musical instruments or in audio components. Panzerholz seems to be one such type of wood."

IMHO mixing musical instruments and audio components in the same sentence only adds confusion. It is like referring to concert halls and listening rooms in some contexts.

One thing is producing music. Reproducing music is a completely different affair.

Anyway, I can't see any "inherent caracteristic " in Panzerholtz to be good or poor for audio applications. It all depends on designer intents and preferences.

BTW, I own several Daiza platforms, one of them sits under the Extreme. Still evaluating them.

 

[tima]

Post #8 corrected: ". . . certain woods have inherent characteristics that are good for use in musical instruments or in audio components. Panzerholz seems to be one such type of wood."

Looks like this thread revived. I understand your correction Ron and appreciate your efforts toward precision in language.

We've seen examples of panzerholz use in a few audio components and audio component intended supports. I have not found any musical instruments typically made of wood or engineered wood where the material used is panzerholz. I realize you are not claiming there are such musical instruments rather talking about 'inherent characteristics' , but that absence of example suggests to me that panzerholz is less good for use in musical instruments than the alternatives.

It would not surprise me that somewhere, sometime a musical instrument or two was made with some panzerholz in it. It would not surprise me if Steinway, Buffet or Cremona experimented with panzerholz. I'm fine with with being corrected, but in the (vast?) majority of cases I don't see panzerholz either used in musical instruments or regarded as having 'good use' in musical instruments.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Looks like this thread revived. I understand your correction Ron and appreciate your efforts toward precision in language.

We've seen examples of panzerholz use in a few audio components and audio component intended supports. I have not found any musical instruments typically made of wood or engineered wood where the material used is panzerholz. I realize you are not claiming there are such musical instruments rather talking about 'inherent characteristics' , but that absence of example suggests to me that panzerholz is less good for use in musical instruments than the alternatives.

It would not surprise me that somewhere, sometime a musical instrument or two was made with some panzerholz in it. It would not surprise me if Steinway, Buffet or Cremona experimented with panzerholz. I'm fine with with being corrected, but in the (vast?) majority of cases I don't see panzerholz either used in musical instruments or regarded as having 'good use' in musical instruments.

An application in musical instruments is in pianos as mounts for the soundboard, to "decouple" the resonating soundboard and/or hammers from the piano chassis. It is not suitable as a soundboard at all as that is supposed to resonate (amplify), panzerholz does a very bad job at resonating due to its very high internal damping and low transmissibility. A typical wood used for a soundboard would be sitka spruce which has a dual function, it can amplify the midrange by resonating and simultaneously damp higher frequency string resonance. Panzerholz is indeed plywood in all its basics, but compressed making it more dense, often even denser then ebony wood (it can be ordered in a whole range of variations to suit different applications). Below 2 photos taken from the web, the arrows point to panzerholz parts. So you would use it in parts of the instrument where you don't want it to transfer vibrations or produce sound.

 

[analogsa]

It would not surprise me if Steinway, Buffet or Cremona experimented with panzerholz.

And they should. For the customers who insist on bullet proof instruments.

 

[gino1961]

Good morning everyone I apologize for getting into a discussion that is of extreme importance to me
My greatest interest is speakers cabinet design and construction. Anyway I just wanted to ask a question
Maybe a viable way to get some indication of the influence of a material on the sound could be to build the body of a turntable cartrdige with that material ? In case the cartridge is naked then the material can be used for the headshell ?
And if the cartridge is of the moving coil type (i.e. low level output) the differences between one material and another should jump to the ear quite easily because of the greater volatge gain applied.
I conclude by saying again that my greatest interest is the design and construction of loudspeaker cabinets.
I have still not understood clearly which material would be the best for speakers cabinet. I see very exotic materials use by some. I can only say that the best material for vibrations damping i have experienced is lead ... just hitting it with a hammer proves that. Unfortunately very toxic as well.
Thanks everyone for the excellent discussion. Now I'll shut up and try to learn. Good day everyone, gino

P.S. https://theaudiophileman.com/songbird-cartridge-review-sumiko/

removing the chassis reduces vibration and resonances and, in theory, lowers the noise floor. This is a valid and frequently used design choice. The likes of van den Hul and Benz are active proponents of this design direction, for example.

so i guess the material with which the headshell is made of should have a sensible impact in cartridge performance/sound. Maybe the less resonant the cleaner the sound ? just guessing of course

 

[Uk Paul]

Good morning everyone I apologize for getting into a discussion that is of extreme importance to me
My greatest interest is speakers cabinet design and construction. Anyway I just wanted to ask a question
Maybe a viable way to get some indication of the influence of a material on the sound could be to build the body of a turntable cartrdige with that material ? In case the cartridge is naked then the material can be used for the headshell ?
And if the cartridge is of the moving coil type (i.e. low level output) the differences between one material and another should jump to the ear quite easily because of the greater volatge gain applied.
I conclude by saying again that my greatest interest is the design and construction of loudspeaker cabinets.
I have still not understood clearly which material would be the best for speakers cabinet. I see very exotic materials use by some. I can only say that the best material for vibrations damping i have experienced is lead ... just hitting it with a hammer proves that. Unfortunately very toxic as well.
Thanks everyone for the excellent discussion. Now I'll shut up and try to learn. Good day everyone, gino

Gino,

This is the case indeed; Aidas Audio use the body materials for their line of very impressive cartridges to voice them, along with either Gold or Copper coils, pretty much everything else stays as is re the design. It is very interesting to hear the differences here, a bit like rolling tubes in a preamplifier..
FYI, Panzerholz was their 'entry level' model, which sounds truly fantastic, but things just get better and better as you work up through the line concluding at the Mammoth Gold mk2 which is simply outstanding, some saying one of the very best MC cartridges ever produced..

Aidas Audio

We are now to be able to supply the wonderful Moving Coil Phono Cartridges from the multi national organisation Aidas Audio, designers and manufacturers of some of the best sounding pick up cartrid…

zaxisaudio.com

ViraUSA and ViraHigEnd is partner with Aidas Audio and has exclusive distribution rights for Aidas Audio phono cartridges around the world.

Aidas Audio is part of ViraUSA business network. Vira USA has distribution rights around the world. All Aidas Audio phono cartridges are in stock.

virahighend.com

Rgds,
Paul

 

[gino1961]

Gino,
This is the case indeed; Aidas Audio use the body materials for their line of very impressive cartridges to voice them, along with either Gold or Copper coils, pretty much everything else stays as is re the design.
It is very interesting to hear the differences here, a bit like rolling tubes in a preamplifier..
FYI, Panzerholz was their 'entry level' model, which sounds truly fantastic, but things just get better and better as you work up through the line concluding at the Mammoth Gold mk2 which is simply outstanding, some saying one of the very best MC cartridges ever produced..

Aidas Audio

We are now to be able to supply the wonderful Moving Coil Phono Cartridges from the multi national organisation Aidas Audio, designers and manufacturers of some of the best sounding pick up cartrid…

zaxisaudio.com

ViraUSA and ViraHigEnd is partner with Aidas Audio and has exclusive distribution rights for Aidas Audio phono cartridges around the world.

Aidas Audio is part of ViraUSA business network. Vira USA has distribution rights around the world. All Aidas Audio phono cartridges are in stock.

virahighend.com

Rgds,
Paul

Hi ! thanks a lot for the very kind and very valuable advice.
I wonder if any instrument testing could be of some help to understand the physics behind the performance ...
I think that the old debate is about looking at a transducer as a musical instrument or not ... for transducer i mean the actual transducer and the body to which the transducer is mounted. Another possible application is a mic enclosure ... not at the same level of the cartridge but also the body material of a mic could have some impact on the sound. The case proposed is very high end ...

The cartridge’s body is made with the ivory from 23,000 year old Siberian wooly mammoth tusks.

Another case using Panzerholz here
https://elusivedisc.com/clearaudio-jubilee-panzerholz-mm-cartridge-3-6mv/

i was thinking also to something much simpler .... just a headshell made with different materials

and much cheaper i guess ... any material could be used ... plexiglass ... panzerholz ... carbon fiber ... any metal wood composite ... and listen for the different outcome
I am not in LPs listening ... but i am very fascinated by the topic
Speaking of speakers cabinet the speakers i like most have very heavy and non resonant cabinets. Unfortunately i have never listened to a Panzerholz cabinet speaker ... i would love that. I guess it is an expensive material ... but much more withing the reach of more exotic one.

 

[jdza]

I do not know if this is Panzrholz but this is a picture of my Thorens Reference platter. The table was built in 1980

8E31FED9-0E5C-42FC-BD08-58D21116AB69 by jdza, on Flickr

 

[Ovenmitt]

I do not know if this is Panzrholz but this is a picture of my Thorens Reference platter. The table was built in 1980

8E31FED9-0E5C-42FC-BD08-58D21116AB69 by jdza, on Flickr

I have never seen anything like that for a turntable platter. A very interesting use of Panzerholz - if indeed it is Panzerholz... can you tell us who made it for you?

 

[jdza]

I have never seen anything like that for a turntable platter. A very interesting use of Panzerholz - if indeed it is Panzerholz... can you tell us who made it for you?

It is the platter of a Thorens Reference. AFAIK they were all built by EMT-Thorens in Lahr in 1979-80.

IMG_0133 by jdza, on Flickr

7B99F072-BBA1-413B-A169-1C900D9EEA4D by jdza, on Flickr

 

[Lagonda]

Can't be Panzerholz, David has a Reference too, and he is allergic to Panzerholz

 

[jdza]

Can't be Panzerholz, David has a Reference too, and he is allergic to Panzerholz

That is the only reason I posted and also why I am unsure. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, maybe it's a chicken in disguise?

 

[Lagonda]

That is the only reason I posted and also why I am unsure. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, maybe it's a chicken in disguise?

Could be that fake Panzerholz they made in East Germany at the time, made out if real wood ! They simply did not have the technical know-how to make "fake wood", they had to camouflage real wood from the black forest and make i look fake This can only be verified by DNA testing, David's might actually be a counterfeit Thorens Reference !

 

[Taiko Audio]

Could be that fake Panzerholz they made in East Germany at the time, made out if real wood ! They simply did not have the technical know-how to make "fake wood", they had to camouflage real wood from the black forest and make i look fake This can only be verified by DNA testing, David's might actually be a counterfeit Thorens Reference !

Hard to say if it's "real" Panzerholz from that photo however there are some visible machining marks pointing towards resin impregnation:




However this is not typical for Panzerholz:

 

[tima]

When it came back to life I re-read this thread from its start. It is an interesting thread with some good discussion.

Coming across this from Taiko who sells a panzerholz base or platform for components:

We picked panzerholz out of a whole range of materials we tested to get high frequency damping, in the range above our active isolation platforms cut of[f], without having to use compliant materials which always introduce a resonance peak at the self resonance of the spring / mass system created. It just performed better at this then everything else we tried.

It made me think of a question I asked in Ron's thread on blacker backgrounds:

Do inaudible frequencies affect how we perceive what we do? The tricky part is discriminating between what is background noise and what is not.

That comment was prompted by power conditioners and signal cables that actively or passively filter certain inadudible frequencies deemed as "noise". The idea being that noise, component generated or coming in on a power line or EMI/RFI, when filtered causes the sonic result of a so-called blacker background and emergence of greater detail. Some people like the effect and some say it can rob the music of energy to produce essentially an artificial effect.

Reading the Taiko quote that the (one?) aim of choosing panzerholz is to achieve high frequency damping brought to mind my question of inaudible frequencies impacting how we perceive what we do. I've read that is the case, but I'm not an audiologist. I've also heard from some equipment designer/manufacturers that we perceive sound with our whole body, not just our ear-brain system. The idea being that inaudible frequencies do impact our sound perception.

Given the 'controversy' over the Daiza and panzerholz generally, I'm wondering if something of the same mechanism and effect is at work with this manufactured wood as with noise filtering power conditioners and cables?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Audiophysic Medea Loudspeaker ist made in Panzerholz 35 layers 310lbs each.
20Hz-28khz(-+2dB)
Three Manger Speaker Form 120Hz-35Khz,Three Woofer 8"active from 20-120Hz. One Of Best Speaker ever made.

 

[Taiko Audio]

The obvious question is if noise, generated by whatever means, is being picked up by our bodies in whatever way, or if it alters circuitry performance, or perhaps even both. Does noise generated in a source component affect amplifier circuitry performance for example? We have a Rohde & Schwarz audio analyser with which I intend to make amplifier output measurements while altering signal unrelated source component circuitry, a real challenge is taking measurements with music playing producing a meaningful difference.