Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

[Mike Lavigne]

Beyond saying it's the effect of wood somewhere in the signal path: What is a/the "wood effect". Is it a sonic characteristic? Would you pls describe it with words other than "musical".

i'm commenting on the idea of an audiophile preference for having a wood cabinet or shelf somewhere in the system, not on it's sonic signature. and i'm not passing judgement on that concept.

as far as my own perspective; i'd say that as maybe the worlds most committed audiophile to resonance control , it's more that i see wood as part of an overall approach to sonic bliss. i view wood structure as somewhat lively and sympathetic to music. neither dull nor ringing. more just natural. i don't have any solid woods anywhere other than the trim edge of shelves. every surface of the walls of my room, my floor (except the carpeted part), and my speakers is all engineered wood structure.

Winston Ma's system used stacks of various hardwood types below his gear. he would painstakingly 'tune' his system to exactly what he wanted.

i recall Joel Durand's study of wood structure when he was developing his first tone arm wands. his inspiration was the bow of a violin, and he liked how easy wood was to shape. when he did his finite element analysis, he found that the randomness of the wood cells to be preferable to the music compared to other materials (especially aluminum) in his first tone arms. he was not married to using the wood, but it was the best material he had yet found. later he moved to composites (you'd have to ask him all the reasons for that).

Marty's comment on how the finest concert halls have a large amount of wood structure as part of the acoustics and floor is maybe an aspect of it. you don't see exposed heavy metal beams and big flat metal walls at concert halls.

i see wood as a musically friendly tool where appropriate to reach our music reproduction goals. but i'm not exactly sure what 'wood' sounds like.

 

[ddk]

The best isolation (the only true isolation?) is having your component suspended in a box of vacuum. Some folks will move components to another room - that isolates them somewhat from speaker originated vibration though they're still subject to the general environment. Planet Earth vibrates around three cycles per second.

My sense is panzerholz is not an isolating device or means. If the Daiza is an example, panzerholz wants to couple snuggly to its component. Panzerholz has a resonance frequency potential. The component has a resonance frequency potential. Put the two together and their resonance frequencies will change.

Given the frequency range of music, odds are that at some points in time the music's frequencies will match those of the panzerholz and the component (and its components), amplifying and directing their energy into each other at various speeds resulting in larger more complex vibrations.This is not isolation. It will cause the system's sound to change. You could call it a veil. You might like the change in sound. You may not. This is not unique to panzerholz. Holds for any board or material you snuggle up to your component although the results are likely unique based on the material selected.

When you dampen you actually steal and rob and that’s what happens with Panzerholz, vital information goes missing. In the case of combined or sympathetic resonance you’ll only have a in pitch and tone usually in the form do a goosed top end and reinforced lower mid and upper bass not the loss of all harmonics.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

Removing Panz from under my Zus has tightened up and focussed the sound.

No apparent change to timbre.

Dave, I guess yr blanket criticism is just that.

 

[NorthStar]

Good morning hocus pocus world ... ?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

When you dampen you actually steal and rob and that’s what happens with Panzerholz, vital information goes missing. In the case of combined or sympathetic resonance you’ll only have a in pitch and tone usually in the form do a goosed top end and reinforced lower mid and upper bass not the loss of all harmonics.

david

David,

when i visited you; you were using a couple of American Dreams racks, which use maple butcher block shelves. you mentioned to me that a while back you were the USA distributor for those racks for some time.

i had an identical one in my room. i always liked how they looked and the build quality was top notch, but was 'meh' on how they sounded. when Ed from Taiko visited my room a couple of years ago and measured all my racks, he found that those measured very poorly. recently i basically gave my American Dreams rack away (sold it for $200).

why do you (or did you) use those?

 

[ddk]

I was a dealer Mike but I like them because as you mentioned it’s just “meh” and they don’t enhance the sound only a mild softening of transients. The shelves aren’t butcher blocks they’re a wood, elastomer and steel construct with steel points sitting in brass cups and the racks’s structure is stiff and the weight well distributed because of its footprint, all this matters to the end result. I also used cheap target stands under various components that you didn’t notice for their “mehness” and purposely avoided the great ones that do more than I like. The lower shelves of the Nothing Rack aren’t dampened on purpose and ring a bit, this way the sound remains alive and if desired the owner can easily tune the sound to their liking with minimal effort and expense without losing information.

We’ve both emphasized empirical evidence over measurement and our ears and brain as the final arbiters so why rely on a single measurement suddenly?

david

Edit- To clarify the implied “meh” quality is in context of this conversation and foundations and not general audio sound quality.

 

[Rhapsody]

Anyone that thinks the Diazas kill the sound please come and visit when you are in NYC. Listen for yourself and form your own opinion.

 

[EuroDriver]

My 2 cents and takeaways from this Panzerholz thread are

- I thank the posters who have given examples of successful Panzerholz applications which I did not know about, which has given me interesting additional data points

- I thank those who have posted their negative experiences with Panzerholz, it forewarns potential experimenters that this material needs to be implemented carefully to achieve good results. The devil, as always, is in the details.

There have been posts which are unkind about the trial and error nature of development work, the numerous blind alleys that one follows only to turn out to be a dead end. ddk's comment of "throwing things against a wall and seeing what sticks" actually resonates with me and made me smile.

What matters is the end result, the enjoyment the artisanal suppliers can deliver to their passionate consumers. That's what drives us to get up in the morning and will do for many years to come

 

[ddk]

Anyone that thinks the Diazas kill the sound please come and visit when you are in NYC. Listen for yourself and form your own opinion.

Can they de-tweak the systems, specially free of certain power cords and remove the panzerholtz first before coming any conclusions?

david

 

[EuroDriver]

Can they de-tweak the systems, specially free of certain power cords and remove the panzerholtz first before coming any conclusions?

david

David

The transformation of the total system SQ at Rhapsody from March 2019 to September 2019 has been dramatic. There have been a lot of changes and its difficult to assign percentages and order of importance, but the vast majority of people who visit Rhapsody now, select their well known favorite tracks from Qobuz, and they are mighty impressed by the sound they hear in an acoustically challenging environment of a New York commercial building.

For the first time I can say in NYC, run, don't walk to Bob's place to hear what High End Digital Audio can sound like and compare it to SOTA vinyl, both are musical and gorgeous

 

[Folsom]

There is no particular

Unfortunately I'm cramped for time today, about to depart for the Hans Zimmer concert at the Ziggodome in The Netherlands tonight. We have managed to acquire mixing console seats. Very exciting.

Let me just add the relationship between capacitors and vibration to this discussion.
1) A voltage applied to a capacitor causes it to vibrate.
2) Vibration applied to a capacitor causes it to generate a voltage.

It should be clear that neither of these are desirable traits in our electronics.

Capacitors for whatever reason only seem to physically vibrate at 12v+. Odd fact, may explain some differences in sound of some things.

 

[Rhapsody]

Can they de-tweak the systems, specially free of certain power cords and remove the panzerholtz first before coming any conclusions?

david

No they cannot. They can listen to any format they want (streaming, vinyl, R2R, cd's) with their own media and listen and then report if there are micro or macro dynamics missing or if the sound is "killed" or if the timbre/tonality seems askew.

If it was as easy as moving one or two Diazas I would be happy to oblige, but I have them under all pieces and it's way too complicated to move everything from the Extreme, the VYGER, the AF1, the DAC, 300lb amp etc.

I would NEVER remove them as I have the best sound that I've ever had in my room that I have been in for 19 years. I had pretty good sound prior but adding first the Extreme and then the Diazas took it over the top to me. Not saying other people would say the same, I'm saying it's what I hear and have experienced.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Edit- To clarify the implied “meh” quality is in context of this conversation and foundations and not general audio sound quality.

no doubt. one guy's 'meh' is another guy's 'not-meh'.

to me 'meh' is very slightly less than ok.......where ok is a very slight smile.

 

[DaveC]

I think it's good to remember there are many paths to nirvana.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Meh? Or Meh Meh?
Do you bring the Meh to you?
Or are you taken to the Meh?
What the Meh!

 

[bonzo75]

It would be interesting if a few people could listen to Emile's board one with grooves and one without to see what panz does and what the grooves do.

Likewise if one of David's tonearm base has some wood in it, and can be compared to his other complete steel bases.

 

[ddk]

No they cannot. They can listen to any format they want (streaming, vinyl, R2R, cd's) with their own media and listen and then report if there are micro or macro dynamics missing or if the sound is "killed" or if the timbre/tonality seems askew.

If it was as easy as moving one or two Diazas I would be happy to oblige, but I have them under all pieces and it's way too complicated to move everything from the Extreme, the VYGER, the AF1, the DAC, 300lb amp etc.

I would NEVER remove them as I have the best sound that I've ever had in my room that I have been in for 19 years. I had pretty good sound prior but adding first the Extreme and then the Diazas took it over the top to me. Not saying other people would say the same, I'm saying it's what I hear and have experienced.

I know Bob, I was kidding.

david

 

[ddk]

David

The transformation of the total system SQ at Rhapsody from March 2019 to September 2019 has been dramatic. There have been a lot of changes and its difficult to assign percentages and order of importance, but the vast majority of people who visit Rhapsody now, select their well known favorite tracks from Qobuz, and they are mighty impressed by the sound they hear in an acoustically challenging environment of a New York commercial building.

For the first time I can say in NYC, run, don't walk to Bob's place to hear what High End Digital Audio can sound like and compare it to SOTA vinyl, both are musical and gorgeous

That’s great!
david

 

[NorthStar]

I just learned a little bit more today ...

 

[ddk]

no doubt. one guy's 'meh' is another guy's 'not-meh'.

to me 'meh' is very slightly less than ok.......where ok is a very slight smile.

I feel the same but it’s relative to what’s available and “meh” coefficient.
david