Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

[Lagonda]

After re-reading the thread, my biggest fear is that David is going to use the Taiko Audio patented "bullet test" on his Thorens Reference,.Be careful David Dutch bullet are not of the same caliber or power as American ones ! Leave your Desert Eagle and Colt 45 under your pillow ! On second thought, Magnum 44 is probably your favorite test equipment, as you are a Dirty Harry fan like me

 

[tima]

Does noise generated in a source component affect amplifier circuitry performance for example?

Not sure about that question unless you mean something like: does noise put on a powerline by a source component (say a power supply) affect amplifier circuitry performance that we experience.

It will interesting if you can show that the amplifier circuitry operates differently on noise from a source component versus some other source, say a linestage.

Does noise generated in a source component impact the signal that source generates?

Does the suppression of inaudible frequencies in a source component impact the signal that source generates?

Does the suppression of inaudible frequencies in a source signal impact what we hear?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Not sure about that question unless you mean something like: does noise put on a powerline by a source component (say a power supply) affect amplifier circuitry performance that we experience.

Powerline, or through interconnects, grounding, radiation or perhaps even vibration.

 

[andromedaaudio]

"bullet test" on his Thorens Reference,

May be david can fire back with " Bullet Wood "
I did nt even know it existed but besides panzerwood there is also bulletwood , Kharma actually makes speakers out of it .

 

[montesquieu]

I have a plinth for my TD124 made with a permali core (permali is a very similar material to panzerholz, manufactured in the UK and with a finer grain/more layers per cm, but very similar density and damping, see link), wrapped not in veneer but in solid wood (sapele to match my speakers). The armboards are permali with a layer of stained walnut on top.

Permali is extremely dense - the plinth alone (no motor unit or armboards fitted) measured at 40kg (about 88 lbs for our non-metric friends) and with motor unit, Schopper platter, armboards and tonearms fitted tops off at more than 60kg. It's a two-man lift to place it on its Townshend Seismic Pods.

It was a bit of an experiment (an expensive one) but I was thoroughly delighted with the result - the deck is substantially quieter in use - the whole noise floor has been lowered, music seems to emerge more freely with more detail ... I would recommend anyone interested to take the plunge.

I didn't do the work myself as the material is extremely hard and requires proper professional tools to work it. (Was done by Russ Collinson whose work is certainly known to some of the Brits here - he does work for a number of hifi manufacturers as well as for private individuals).

Shown here in its various stages of construction:

 

[ddk]

May be david can fire back with " Bullet Wood "
I did nt even know it existed but besides panzerwood there is also bulletwood , Kharma actually makes speakers out of it .



View attachment 76030

Have to ask Charles about Bulletwood!
david

 

[ddk]

The obvious question is if noise, generated by whatever means, is being picked up by our bodies in whatever way, or if it alters circuitry performance, or perhaps even both. Does noise generated in a source component affect amplifier circuitry performance for example? We have a Rohde & Schwarz audio analyser with which I intend to make amplifier output measurements while altering signal unrelated source component circuitry, a real challenge is taking measurements with music playing producing a meaningful difference.

Hi Emile,
How noise from one "thing" affects the overall sound of a system is another one those mysteries. Ground and electricity's effects on system is something that I've been researching for some time now. I can measure it and hear it, I can measure it and not hear it and also I can hear but can't measure it and the effects can be significant in a high resolution well setup system. For example a switched power strip can compress the over all sound simply by plugging it in somewhere near the system even on a different circuit than the audio system. Yet an amplifier, CD player, preamp, etc. wont have any effect. It's so random that of it makes no sense. Maybe we should exchange notes at some point, it's significant.

david

 

[Taiko Audio]

Hi Emile,
How noise from one "thing" affects the overall sound of a system is another one those mysteries. Ground and electricity's effects on system is something that I've been researching for some time now. I can measure it and hear it, I can measure it and not hear it and also I can hear but can't measure it and the effects can be significant in a high resolution well setup system. For example a switched power strip can compress the over all sound simply by plugging it in somewhere near the system even on a different circuit than the audio system. Yet an amplifier, CD player, preamp, etc. wont have any effect. It's so random that of it makes no sense. Maybe we should exchange notes at some point, it's significant.

david

Sounds good David! Btw I came across this video on youtube, you probably already saw that, the sound quality here is obviously impaired by the environment, impressive nonetheless:

 

[ddk]

Sounds good David! Btw I came across this video on youtube, you probably already saw that, the sound quality here is obviously impaired by the environment, impressive nonetheless:

I don't know abut the clothes but interesting props !

david

 

[microstrip]

The obvious question is if noise, generated by whatever means, is being picked up by our bodies in whatever way, or if it alters circuitry performance, or perhaps even both. Does noise generated in a source component affect amplifier circuitry performance for example? (...)

Electrical noise affects the performance of electronic components in stereo - in fact some current mains tweaks being sold are just noise generators. Noise is extremely difficult to analyze and diagnose - sometimes the noise being produced in a devices interacts with the performance of another one, but not with others.

The SoundLab switching HV power supply is a considerable source of noise. I found in the past that powering it from an improvised regenerator - a 50 Hz Wien oscillator driving an old Yamaha amplifier driving a step up power transformer improved enormously the performance with some particular solid state amplfiers, not so much in tube systems. IMHO the improvised power regenerator was mainly keeping the switching noise away from the mains.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Electrical noise affects the performance of electronic components in stereo - in fact some current mains tweaks being sold are just noise generators. Noise is extremely difficult to analyze and diagnose - sometimes the noise being produced in a devices interacts with the performance of another one, but not with others.

The SoundLab switching HV power supply is a considerable source of noise. I found in the past that powering it from an improvised regenerator - a 50 Hz Wien oscillator driving an old Yamaha amplifier driving a step up power transformer improved enormously the performance with some particular solid state amplfiers, not so much in tube systems. IMHO the improvised power regenerator was mainly keeping the switching noise away from the mains.

Absolutely, a medical grade SMPS helps a little by not shunting switching noise residual to "ground" by means of Y-capacitors. What you probably know, but many don't, is that electrical high frequency noise dumped on to your safety earth travels everywhere, through your entire home, it does not "seek the shortest path to your ground rod" performing a magical disappearing act there, a better way to view your safety earth system is like an antenna. Some grounding tweaks attempt to store and release signals with shifted phase, acting somewhat similar to diffusors, the ideal of full phase cancellation is probably impossible to achieve in variable environments. But I do completely agree with @ddk , we are missing a part of the picture reducing a majority of our noise mitigation efforts to throwing spaghetti to a wall and see what sticks. It would be much more efficient to actually be aware of all pathways by which noise influences sound, or our perception.

 

[microstrip]

(...) But I do completely agree with @ddk , we are missing a part of the picture reducing a majority of our noise mitigation efforts to throwing spaghetti to a wall and see what sticks. It would be much more efficient to actually be aware of all pathways by which noise influences sound, or our perception.

Dreams are never efficient ... And sometimes the spaghetti sticks to the wall. If you read with care David past posts on grounding and grounding rods you will find that each of us has its own spaghetti!

 

[ddk]

Dreams are never efficient ... And sometimes the spaghetti sticks to the wall. If you read with care David past posts on grounding and grounding rods you will find that each of us has its own spaghetti!

I'm Italian, we know our Spaghetti!
The grounding schemes weren't trial and error, they're all well known ground and earthing strategies nothing experimental. I tried different strategies and products to hear the effects of earth and grounding technique on sound, the same as running different types and gauges of electrical wire from the panel to the equipment.This was all very straight forward to find out the sonic character of cabling, what we're talking with Emile is a very different and real can of worms. It's the effect of some electronics and electrical products on the sound even when they're off and why only some and not others and even if they're on completely different circuits and even separate electrical panels, you can still hear compression or some type of high frequency noise affecting the system. Unlike grounding schemes this is very random and I have no explanation for it.

david

 

[microstrip]

I'm Italian, we know our Spaghetti!
The grounding schemes weren't trial and error, they're all well known ground and earthing strategies nothing experimental.

Grounding systems in high-end audio are "experimental" because manufacturers follow different grounding practices and the classic rules address mainly hum induced by ground loops.

I tried different strategies and products to hear the effects of earth and grounding technique on sound, the same as running different types and gauges of electrical wire from the panel to the equipment.

Can we know what were your conclusions?

This was all very straight forward to find out the sonic character of cabling, what we're talking with Emile is a very different and real can of worms. It's the effect of some electronics and electrical products on the sound even when they're off and why only some and not others and even if they're on completely different circuits and even separate electrical panels, you can still hear compression or some type of high frequency noise affecting the system. Unlike grounding schemes this is very random and I have no explanation for it.

david

What do you mean by "they are off"? In stand-by mode? Can you nominate a few of these electronic and electric products that negatively affect sound quality and we are not able to tell why? In some products the worst offender is the mains filter, that injects noise in the ground line.

 

[ddk]

Grounding systems in high-end audio are "experimental" because manufacturers follow different grounding practices and the classic rules address mainly hum induced by ground loops.

Can we know what were your conclusions?

Call it what you want it was all basic established ground/earthing strategies nothing to do with ground noise or hum. I wanted to see how the sound changes with various earth setups, wire gauge, wire length, single and multiple connections, various grounding rod types and materials, etc., nothing to do with any particular brand of electronics. What I learnt aside from lowering AC noise is how to change the balance and even tonality of a system via the ground without loss of detail or natural sound which is often sacrificed when people try to lower mains and system noise. It’s no different than working with different materials for racks or turntable platters.

What do you mean by "they are off"? In stand-by mode? Can you nominate a few of these electronic and electric products that negatively affect sound quality and we are not able to tell why? In some products the worst offender is the mains filter, that injects noise in the ground line.

Off, just plugged in not in stdby or turned on. I don’t have anything conclusive Francisco and haven’t figured out how or why either. I found many items affecting the sound in my room, it can be a power strip plugged in to the house circuit or a turntable motor, even some types of pc boards. It can be another piece of audio gear but I’ve found non-mains related audio equipment generally benign. Computers seem to be fine for the most part too. I have no explanation and any rhyme or reason why sound changes simply by plugging something in.

david

 

[Taiko Audio]

I have no explanation and any rhyme or reason why sound changes simply by plugging something in.

david

Nowadays an IEC entry filter is pretty standard in consumer electronics. That would typically have a capacitor from live to neutral, from live to “ground” and from neutral to “ground”. Perhaps that can offer somewhat of an explanation.

But there’s something else going on. Using our Daiza platform as an example, in all its basics its a stack of panzerholz-copper-panzerholz, there is no electrically conductive path from the copper disc to floor or equipment placed on top. Grounding that copper disc is very audible.

 

[ddk]

Nowadays an IEC entry filter is pretty standard in consumer electronics. That would typically have a capacitor from live to neutral, from live to “ground” and from neutral to “ground”. Perhaps that can offer somewhat of an explanation.

But there’s something else going on. Using our Daiza platform as an example, in all its basics its a stack of panzerholz-copper-panzerholz, there is no electrically conductive path from the copper disc to floor or equipment placed on top. Grounding that copper disc is very audible.

There’s definitely something going on! I started by pulling off parts off a board and then plugged in a blank PCB and still heard the same affect on sound. I guess the small traces of copper work the same way as what you have with your Daiza. Next step was ground lifting but it turned out that the two prong adaptor I used had it’s own affect on sound without anything attached, any ideas?

david

 

[microstrip]

Call it what you want it was all basic established ground/earthing strategies nothing to do with ground noise or hum. I wanted to see how the sound changes with various earth setups, wire gauge, wire length, single and multiple connections, various grounding rod types and materials, etc., nothing to do with any particular brand of electronics. What I learnt aside from lowering AC noise is how to change the balance and even tonality of a system via the ground without loss of detail or natural sound which is often sacrificed when people try to lower mains and system noise. It’s no different than working with different materials for racks or turntable platters.

Off, just plugged in not in stdby or turned on. I don’t have anything conclusive Francisco and haven’t figured out how or why either. I found many items affecting the sound in my room, it can be a power strip plugged in to the house circuit or a turntable motor, even some types of pc boards. It can be another piece of audio gear but I’ve found non-mains related audio equipment generally benign. Computers seem to be fine for the most part too. I have no explanation and any rhyme or reason why sound changes simply by plugging something in.

david

Well, can you tell us at less what are those "basic established ground/earthing strategies"?
My references for grounding are still the Bill Whitlock papers on audio grounding and the Ralph Morrison text books on grounding and shielding, it looks you have others.

And I am confused with your second sentence - are you saying that some devices, even when switched off by commutators that separate them from the mains power can affect sound quality?

 

[microstrip]

Nowadays an IEC entry filter is pretty standard in consumer electronics. That would typically have a capacitor from live to neutral, from live to “ground” and from neutral to “ground”. Perhaps that can offer somewhat of an explanation.

Surely - it known since long. But the influence depends on system properties and layout.

The fist thing to understand on grounding debates is the concept of impedance. As long as people stay with resistance it is just an anecdotal debate.

As far as I see you are mainly addressing noise in digital systems, David addresses noise in pure analog systems. I think they are completely different entities, but I can be wrong.

 

[ddk]

Well, can you tell us at less what are those "basic established ground/earthing strategies"?
My references for grounding are still the Bill Whitlock papers on audio grounding and the Ralph Morrison text books on grounding and shielding, it looks you have others.

The links in this short article will explain a few of them.

https://www.anelectricalengineer.com/methods-of-electrical-earthing-systems/

And I am confused with your second sentence - are you saying that some devices, even when switched off by commutators that separate them from the mains power can affect sound quality?

Yes.

david