Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

[Taiko Audio]

The last few plinths I've made are more like layer cakes - the recipe. For Garrard's and other idlers, I'm using 2 inch of either hard maple or cherry layers alternating with panzerholz and then 2-4 inches of bamboo for the bottom layer. To my ears, this combination is super effective at quieting the idlers mechanical noise but also keeping the liveliness and dynamics of those decks in good order. My latest experiments adding bamboo has really been a nice icing on my layer cake. It seems to augment the damping of panzer and also the liveliness of hardwood - go figure... For the direct drive decks that I've worked with, I've used layers of 6061 aluminum.

I "wrap" the layer cake (inner core) with 2-4 inches of solid hardwood and use decorative woods mitered into the corners; you can see the latest one I did in purple hart wood and maple....

Excellent craftmanship! Beautiful work. Stacking materials of varying density is interesting as it increases the acoustical impedance. Soundwaves transport badly between 2 materials with different density. It is the same mechanism as sound moving through air in your listening room reflecting off walls, the acoustic impedance mismatch between Panzerholz and Bamboo is larger then that between Panzerholz and Cherry, so more energy will reflect on the junction between Panzerholz and Bamboo. Where this becomes a very complex model is that these materials have different internal damping and modes. And then there's the question of if you want to reflect and/or damp energy, or if you want to "transport" it as efficiently as possible. And in case of the latter, where are you "transporting" it to, and what are you getting back in return as that is a 2 way street. So the result here is going to be variable depending on the properties of your rack, and your floor. And in the end you will just have to listen, if for private use that's all it takes, if you're a manufacturer it needs to perform in a wide range of different scenarios. As a manufacturer I can 99% guarantee good performance from using panzerholz platforms with equipment made out of aluminium, which is wat virtually all digital gear is made out of and also the bulk of solid state amplifiers / pre amplifiers. But for turntables, tube amplifiers, and loudspeakers, often constructed from different materials, all bets are off and it becomes a guessing game.

 

[Taiko Audio]

This has been a fascinating interchange between you and Emile re observable effects with unknown or uncertain causes, some measureable and some not. I have not heard any prior discussion on similar findings and can't even think of a name for what you're discussing. 'Electrical anomalies' perhaps, but there may not be a single description or account but several different causes. It seems weird but I suppose the unknown can seem that way. Can either of you give an example of what you hear differently for one scenario?

The lack of a name probably explains why you haven't come across it earlier. There's a forum section on Audio Asylum fittingly named "The Isolation Ward" https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=isolation where anomalies are discussed which are hard to explain by the laws of nature we're aware of. At any rate, there are a lot of agreements and disagreements, but I am nowadays operating under the assumption that there are a lot of things which can influence our perception of sound quality, and even more importantly, our musical enjoyment. As much as anything in your listening room can affect sound quality by altering room acoustics, anything connected to your power grid or connected to your system through other pathways can influence it as well. There are many uncertainties in this as it could even be possible that some of these influence your feelings of well being which could impact your listening experience too, I'm pretty sure we're all familiar with "off days" where it just does not sound as good, after a bad night of sleep or other stressors.

As for what we hear differently, simply read up on a few threads discussing "ground tweaks". It is actually not subtle most of the time. Whether it's actually positive or negative is a different discussion we should not get into to keep the waters clear, fact is there are unexplainable differences and most people can hear them.

 

[tima]

As for what we hear differently, simply read up on a few threads discussing "ground tweaks". It is actually not subtle most of the time. Whether it's actually positive or negative is a different discussion we should not get into to keep the waters clear, fact is there are unexplainable differences and most people can hear them.

Thanks for your response.

I have not used "ground tweaks" - at least not to my knowledge. I do have 20A dedicated circuits in my audio room but other than that I'm not knowingly 'doing anything unusual'. So there's nothing I know of that I can stop doing other than unplug something like a lamp or clock. Which leads me to ask how would I know if the sound of my system or my perception is impacted (+/-) by whatever (for lack of a better word) it is you're describing? Not that I'm expecting you to have an answer. For now this seems pretty esoteric and Lumliesque. It would be interesting if there was some known example that we can try.

 

[ddk]

This has been a fascinating interchange between you and Emile re observable effects with unknown or uncertain causes, some measureable and some not. I have not heard any prior discussion on similar findings and can't even think of a name for what you're discussing. 'Electrical anomalies' perhaps, but there may not be a single description or account but several different causes. It seems weird but I suppose the unknown can seem that way. Can either of you give an example of what you hear differently for one scenario?

In my case plugging in any of offending equipment or appliance even in the non-audio house wiring as long as it’s in the listening room or close vicinity results in an immediate compression. I lose air, tonality becomes somewhat homogenized, top end rolls off and loses bite and the low end is rolled up and again with some loss of definition and tone. This is irrespective of digital or analog front end.

david

PS I run the same experiment with non-audiophiles and other audiophiles to make sure that I’m not feeling what I‘m hearing and that actually something is going on. Last year I made some videos and sent them around too and people heard the difference.

 

[tima]

In my case plugging in any of offending equipment or appliance even in the non-audio house wiring as long as it’s in the listening room or close vicinity results in an immediate compression.

Again, very interesting. Perhaps in my audio room I will try unplugging a lamp or battery charger not on a dedicated circuit to see if I hear differences. I don't know if my system is of sufficient resolution or a difference is obvious, but we'll see. If you are inclined to post one of your videos, please do.

 

[Stacore]

Nowadays an IEC entry filter is pretty standard in consumer electronics. That would typically have a capacitor from live to neutral, from live to “ground” and from neutral to “ground”. Perhaps that can offer somewhat of an explanation.

Good tip I would say. In my DIY phono I first loaded the line side of the PS with all kinds of engineering toys: Multistage filters, surge arresters, blocking caps etc. Then one wise man (whom David knows) advised to remove all that. Reluctant as I was, I did remove it and was surprised by the change: Instantly more air, cleaner and more direct sound. Indeed the effect similar to a proper vibration isolation. All the plugged in equipment, even into non-audio lines has to meet at the main power entrance point. Perhaps it is this interaction.

 

[tima]

Good tip I would say. In my DIY phono I first loaded the line side of the PS with all kinds of engineering toys: Multistage filters, surge arresters, blocking caps etc. Then one wise man (whom David knows) advised to remove all that. Reluctant as I was, I did remove it and was surprised by the change: Instantly more air, cleaner and more direct sound. Indeed the effect similar to a proper vibration isolation. All the plugged in equipment, even into non-audio lines has to meet at the main power entrance point. Perhaps it is this interaction.

Nice to see you here Jarek.

 

[Stacore]

Nice to see you here Jarek.

Thank you Tima, I'm recently much more into science than audio but trying to catch up from time to time

 

[Rensselaer]

Taking a cue from @montesuieu and coming back to using panzerholz (or other types of super compressed ply) in turntables, I thought I would share some from my experiences in case anyone finds it helpful.

I have experimented with a few different materials (just using my ears - nothing super scientific) and have really come to appreciate panzerholz as part of the "recipe" in plinth construction. I have tried to use it in plinth making exclusively (i.e., just panzerholz and no other material) and found it dead sounding or over damped.

I have also tried various hard woods (hard maple, cherry, mahogany, ebony, etc.), metals, and different stone combinations. Solid hardwood on it's own can be nice but it's a bit noisy in my opinion. I've experimented with solid wood plinths from 4-about 16 inches deep.

The natural stone that I've tried has had it's own signature as well. Granite sounded, well... hard. Soap stone works really well for dampening and I'm using it in my rack, with my turntables sitting on it.

The last few plinths I've made are more like layer cakes - the recipe. For Garrard's and other idlers, I'm alternating 2 inch slabs of either hard maple or cherry with panzerholz and then 2-4 inches of bamboo for the bottom layer. To my ears, this combination is super effective at quieting the idlers mechanical noise but also keeping the liveliness and dynamics that those decks are known for. My latest experiment with adding bamboo to the mix, has been like adding a nice "icing on my cake". Bamboo seems to augment both the damping of panzer and also the liveliness of hardwood - go figure... For the direct drive decks that I've worked with, I've also used layers of 6061 aluminum.

I "wrap" the layer cake (inner core) with 2-4 inches of solid hardwood and use decorative woods mitered into the corners; you can see the latest one I did in purple hart wood and maple....

Right now I'm having a lot of fun working on a monster Commonwealth 12D.

For my arm boards I am using a lot higher ratio of panzerholz to other materials.

Please explain how reducing the motor vibrations in a 301 plinth so that they are not picked up by the tonearm and cartridge with Panzerholz can “deaden” the sound ? Surely not the sound from the grooves? How can it? What does that say about high-mass metal and stone systems like the Brinkmann Balance?

I mean no disrespect to your opinion, it is just that I am having my 301 rebuilt by Classic turntables (UK) with a thicker/stronger machined chassis, bearing assembly and 20kg brass platter, and was planning to have the plinth built of panzerholz to make sure any residual vibration doesn’t get into the Reed 5A tangential tonearm that I will be mounting to it. I am in a position now to make changes but won’t be in the near future.

Please could you and some of the others on this forum give me the reasoning why the music played from a turntable mounted in an acoustically dead plinth would also become acoustically dead?

The rest of my system is designed to reduce unwanted vibration as well; the SUTs are Phasemation T-2000 which are separate well-shielded and vibration-reduced units for each channel, and my Thrax Lyra speakers are milled out of a solid aluminium billet and are absolutely dead to the rap test.

So, why would motor rumble resonation from a wood that is more susceptible to such make the music from my speakers sound more present, live, better tone, what?

 

[KPC]

Vibration control- perhaps there is no one-size-fits-all solution.
Audio components has electrical parts that in use create micro vibrations. For sum total of a component vibrating parts, let’s call it “Chorus of Micro Vibrations” (CMV).
Unless the audio components are exactly identical (same make/model/year/part spacing), each component will have it own unique CMV so may react differently to vibration treatment as compared to other components. Even within a component, sonically there may be circuits the benefit from vibration control while simultaneously other circuits may be detrimental.

 

[KPC]

@ddk - I’m not sure of the feasibility but if you can run your audio experiments in a dedicated electrical system “independent of the power grid“, you may avoid the complex interactions of other appliances sharing the line.

 

[ddk]

@ddk - I’m not sure of the feasibility but if you can run your audio experiments in a dedicated electrical system “independent of the power grid“, you may avoid the complex interactions of other appliances sharing the line.

Off the grid has its own issues too.

david

 

[Rensselaer]

The thread is about using Panzerholz in audio systems and amongst the threads were some related to its use in turntable construction. As someone who is at this time is getting a plinth made from Panzerholz for my Garrard 301, I was somewhat dismayed to read what Ovenmitt wrote, that from his own experimentation he found wooden plinths made solely from Panzerholz "dead sounding or over-damped". As someone not in the industry, but with a fair amount of experience as an enthusiast, I am confused by his statement and seek clarification by he or anyone else who might know and can explain it simply for me.

Specifically, what confuses me... that a wooden plinth for a turntable made of dense chemically and physically bonded spruce ply (Panzerholz) which is very dense and deadens the mechanical vibrations of the turntable motor much more than untreated spruce ply does, will somehow "deaden" the music coming from the needle moving back and forth in the grooves of a record played on such, whereas, all else in the audio playback chain being equal, the music obtained from that same groove of that same record played on the same turntable, but this time mounted to a plinth made from untreated spruce ply, would not be deadened?

I carefully worded my understanding of what Ovenmitt had said so that he, or anyone else with the requisite knowledge that I lack, can explain it to me in terms I can understand. Please weigh in.

 

[PeterA]

I heard my friends technic SP10 Mk 3 In a very nicely made panzerholtz plinth and I did sound rather lifeless Compared to my SME 30/12. Same arm same cartridge. I don’t know the reasons for this because the SP 10 is a very lively turntable. Sometimes one just has to listen to the results and choose which one he prefers.

 

[dcc]

I recently changed the plinth of my Thorens TD 124/II from a rather ordinary laminated one to an Artisan Fidelity plinth combining panzerholtz and cocobolo wood. Nothing else was changed (same tonearm and cartridge). The sonic performances of the Thorens turntable have significantly increased. A friend of mine who knows both my systems very well assisted me in the process and reached out the same conclusions. He is also one of the best analog experts in Continental Europe BTW - He is is the owner of Anamighty Sound.

 

[montesquieu]

Well I've had about four different plinths on my TD124 and found the panzerholz cored one (panzerholz wrapped in sold sapele) to be far from dead or dull. It's certainly quieter, dropping the noise floor all round, but this simply enables what's on the record - fine detail, room acoustic - to emerge better, without killing the drive or character in any way and far better than any hollow, solid ply or solid cherry / veneered plinth I've owned previously for the TD124.

TBH I've never been the biggest fan of the SP10, I prefer a good idler - but I actually don't see the mechanism for a panzerholz plinth making the sound lifeless - why would a quieter plinth damp what the stylus picks up, rather than do what it does on the TD124, and help it emerge with lower background noise? Maybe there was something else going on?

Incidentally I would still take an SP10 over an SME30/10 in a heartbeat - any I have heard have been and bit too bright and shiny (unnaturaly so) for my taste. But as always YMMV, some laud them for their 'detail'.

 

[Rensselaer]

Thanks guys, that is what I figured.

 

[Robert Young]

Thank you Tima, I'm recently much more into science than audio but trying to catch up from time to time

Jarek, you should consider sharing your magnificent Lenco resto-mod with this group....Your science and many afficionado's audio coincide right there...

 

[Ovenmitt]

Please explain how reducing the motor vibrations in a 301 plinth so that they are not picked up by the tonearm and cartridge with Panzerholz can “deaden” the sound ? Surely not the sound from the grooves? How can it? What does that say about high-mass metal and stone systems like the Brinkmann Balance?

I mean no disrespect to your opinion, it is just that I am having my 301 rebuilt by Classic turntables (UK) with a thicker/stronger machined chassis, bearing assembly and 20kg brass platter, and was planning to have the plinth built of panzerholz to make sure any residual vibration doesn’t get into the Reed 5A tangential tonearm that I will be mounting to it. I am in a position now to make changes but won’t be in the near future.

Please could you and some of the others on this forum give me the reasoning why the music played from a turntable mounted in an acoustically dead plinth would also become acoustically dead?

The rest of my system is designed to reduce unwanted vibration as well; the SUTs are Phasemation T-2000 which are separate well-shielded and vibration-reduced units for each channel, and my Thrax Lyra speakers are milled out of a solid aluminium billet and are absolutely dead to the rap test.

So, why would motor rumble resonation from a wood that is more susceptible to such make the music from my speakers sound more present, live, better tone, what?

Hi Rensselaer,

I'm very sorry that I have not responded to your questions sooner.... Life has been a little stressful around these parts lately and I haven't been paying as much attention to WBF.

To reiterate, my thoughts are all based on my listening and my preferences and what is (to me) common sense. I am also a musician (guitar) and I suppose that I naturally bring those sensibilities into my thinking on system building/design.

It may be a matter of semantics, but I found that when I made a plinth entirely from Panzerholz it was lifeless and rather boring - it was very quiet but it lacked dynamics, rhythm and timing. I used the word "over damped" earlier, but that may not be what's actually going on mechanically. Those words were just my way of describing what I felt I was hearing.

FWIW, I have also tried a plinth made entirely from Baltic Birch and I thought it sounded noisy and pretty tipped toward the upper midrange (maybe a Q of around 1K?). To my ears, it was the other side of the coin from using Panzerholz..... This is all me experimenting with the Garrard 301. My Technics seems to like a different recipe. I'm building a Commonwealth idler turntable and plinth right now and hoping that something similar to the Garrard mix that I like sounds good with it as well.

Check out Emile's response (#201) to my initial post. I really learned a lot from just reading his 3-4 paragraphs. He does a great job of putting a bit of "science" to what I feel I'm hearing. Maybe his information will be helpful to you too.

 

[Ovenmitt]

As an addendum, I just got my Technics SP10 Mk3 back from Fidelis Audio. He did a very comprehensive job of updating and refurbishing - highly recommended ...

To be honest, I am quite amazed at how much better it sounds. I always really liked this turntable but thought it could be a bit mechanical sounding sometimes - "a little too much rock and not enough roll", as Keith Richards would say.... I don't have the greatest vocabulary when it comes to Hi-Fi prose, so I'll just say that it sounds quite beautiful now.

Realizing this doesn't have much to do with Panzerholz...