Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

[Rensselaer]

Mark, you state that you are perplexed by much of the thread and write that the "author attributes higher quality to those systems in which ringing or distortion from cabinet and plinth vibration is allowed, even encouraged." The author of this perplexing thread is @tima , not me, and not ddk. Yet you later claim that your post above is not addressing ddk but rather me.



So, since the point you are making is not to the author of the thread, nor is it to ddk, but to me, could you please indicate to which of my posts you are responding? I am trying to follow along so that I can respond, but I do not see what I wrote earlier to cause you to write your post #244 above. You refer in your post #244 to an author, supposedly me, who attributes higher quality to those systems that ring or distort.... You then refer to someone, supposedly me again, who claimed that "they (he) listened to identical systems with one variable, that being Panzerholz in one...."

I do not recall ever attributing "a higher quality to those systems that ring or distort", nor do I recall that I ever claimed to have listened to identical systems with one having Panzerholz and the other spruce. I do not think I have ever heard a component or shelf made of either Panzerholz or of spruce.

I really hope you can be more specific and point out my post on which all of your claims are based. Thank you.

Post #214 you made a claim based upon your listening experience, that a turntable with a Panzerholz plinth sounded lifeless despite having a cartridge that you knew from experience to be a lively cartridge. And that the Panzerholz as plinth material was the only real difference.

Since the music played on the turntable with Panzerholz sounded lifeless to you, and since Panzerholz is known to suppress extraneous vibrations (eg. “Ringing”), I take from your observation that Ringing, or other distortion coming from a plinth, that hasn’t been dampened with Panzerholz, must be what adds “life” to the music played on such.

Your finding I attributed as “expert opinion”.

 

[PeterA]

Post #214 you made a claim based upon your listening experience, that a turntable with a Panzerholz plinth sounded lifeless despite having a cartridge that you knew from experience to be a lively cartridge. And that the Panzerholz as plinth material was the only real difference.

Since the music played on the turntable with Panzerholz sounded lifeless to you, and since Panzerholz is known to suppress extraneous vibrations (eg. “Ringing”), I take from your observation that Ringing, or other distortion coming from a plinth, that hasn’t been dampened with Panzerholz, must be what adds “life” to the music played on such.

Your finding I attributed as “expert opinion”.

Thank you Mark. Here is the entire post #214:

"I heard my friends Technics SP10 Mk 3 in a very nicely made panzerholz plinth and it did sound rather lifeless compared to my SME 30/12. Same arm, same cartridge. I don’t know the reasons for this because the SP 10 is a very lively turntable. Sometimes one just has to listen to the results and choose which one he prefers."

I had forgotten that I have heard Panzerholz in one instance, and it was in this friend's turntable. I was mistaken about not hearing it before. The difference we heard was the two completely different turntables. This was a direct comparison in my own system over a few days. My friend owned the same SME V12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge that I also had on my SME 30/12 turntable, so aside from the arm and cartridge being different samples of the same products, the only difference was the two turntables. The Panzerholz plinth was not the only real difference. The the DD and BD turntables are very different designs.

I did not write anything about the "lively cartridge". I thought the SP 10 mk3 turntable to be a rather lively sounding turntable based on what I had read and based on my listening experience with the SP10 mk2 that I heard in a different, non-Panzerholz plinth with this same friend. Compared to my SME turntable, yes, the sound was rather lifeless, not just to me, but also to my friend who owned the turntable. I had not actually heard of anyone describing that particular turntable as lifeless before. We were both quite shocked. We speculated that it was the plinth material.

I assure you that I am no expert, and many of my local friends think my opinion has become quite suspect, but I appreciate the sentiment. Something about my friend's turntable was causing the life to be sucked out of the music. I do not know what it was, but we speculated that it was the plinth. I think one must find a way to manage resonances, not just add or dampen them. Each material has its properties. Too much resonance, and the music can get blurred and distorted. Too little, and it can sound dull and over-damped sounding. To be clear, I am not advocating ringing or creating distortion to add life to recorded music. Just as I wrote above in my post from a year and a half ago, I think one should listen to the results and choose which he prefers. My friend and I did that, and we both prefered the sound of the belt drive suspended SME with two damped steel chassis to the unsuspended DD SP10 mk 3 in the beautiful and massive Panzerholz plinth.

 

[Argonaut]

I

You replied to me, yet a good portion of your post is aimed at ddk. Maybe if he's lucky he won't see this twaddle.

Give your condescension a rest please ! You are coming across as something of a ddk enforcer.

 

[Rensselaer]

Thank you Mark. Here is the entire post #214:

"I heard my friends Technics SP10 Mk 3 in a very nicely made panzerholz plinth and it did sound rather lifeless compared to my SME 30/12. Same arm, same cartridge. I don’t know the reasons for this because the SP 10 is a very lively turntable. Sometimes one just has to listen to the results and choose which one he prefers."

I had forgotten that I have heard Panzerholz in one instance, and it was in this friend's turntable. I was mistaken about not hearing it before. The difference we heard was the two completely different turntables. This was a direct comparison in my own system over a few days. My friend owned the same SME V12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge that I also had on my SME 30/12 turntable, so aside from the arm and cartridge being different samples of the same products, the only difference was the two turntables. The Panzerholz plinth was not the only real difference. The the DD and BD turntables are very different designs.

I did not write anything about the "lively cartridge". I thought the SP 10 mk3 turntable to be a rather lively sounding turntable based on what I had read and based on my listening experience with the SP10 mk2 that I heard in a different, non-Panzerholz plinth with this same friend. Compared to my SME turntable, yes, the sound was rather lifeless, not just to me, but also to my friend who owned the turntable. I had not actually heard of anyone describing that particular turntable as lifeless before. We were both quite shocked. We speculated that it was the plinth material.

I assure you that I am no expert, and many of my local friends think my opinion has become quite suspect, but I appreciate the sentiment. Something about my friend's turntable was causing the life to be sucked out of the music. I do not know what it was, but we speculated that it was the plinth. I think one must find a way to manage resonances, not just add or dampen them. Each material has its properties. Too much resonance, and the music can get blurred and distorted. Too little, and it can sound dull and over-damped sounding. To be clear, I am not advocating ringing or creating distortion to add life to recorded music. Just as I wrote above in my post from a year and a half ago, I think one should listen to the results and choose which he prefers. My friend and I did that, and we both prefered the sound of the belt drive suspended SME with two damped steel chassis to the unsuspended DD SP10 mk 3 in the beautiful and massive Panzerholz plinth.

“Expert Opinion” is the least reliable of the generally accepted evidence to a hypothesis ( but certainly better than the majority of unsupported opinion given on this website). You gave an opinion (or rather made an observation) based upon an actual comparison where you did compare two turntables where Panzerholz was one of the variables and found it the worse-sounding of the two turntables, but fairly as you point out there was other variables at play.

No, you were not the original poster, but you had followed the subject and made your contribution to the discussion based upon your related experience, as we all do. I see the threads as conversations between members. We read and learn, or add to the information when able.

As you are aware, I built my plinth from a British version of Panzerholz called Permali in order to decouple the tonearm (mounted to the plinth) from any vibrations coming from the large Garrard 301 motor (also the motor vibrates less with the voltage-controlled power supply, the Chassis and platter are CNC-machined from solid brass, and the plinth sits atop four Townshend isolation pods). My turntable weighs more than 100 lbs and the music from it sounds wonderful, certainly not “lifeless”, so please pardon my belief that more rigorous study is required before any generality concerning Panzerholz be accepted.

As a consequence of a medical education, I have gained a healthy respect for properly set up trials (wherein enough participants who are randomly selected and “double-blinded” are used to assess variable test pairings of identical equipment save Panzerholz in place of one normally wooden item) so suggested such as the most unbiased (read valid) way to address/answer the question posed on Panzerholz.

 

[microstrip]

Thank you Mark. Here is the entire post #214:

"I heard my friends Technics SP10 Mk 3 in a very nicely made panzerholz plinth and it did sound rather lifeless compared to my SME 30/12. Same arm, same cartridge. I don’t know the reasons for this because the SP 10 is a very lively turntable. Sometimes one just has to listen to the results and choose which one he prefers."

I had forgotten that I have heard Panzerholz in one instance, and it was in this friend's turntable. I was mistaken about not hearing it before. The difference we heard was the two completely different turntables. This was a direct comparison in my own system over a few days. My friend owned the same SME V12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge that I also had on my SME 30/12 turntable, so aside from the arm and cartridge being different samples of the same products, the only difference was the two turntables. The Panzerholz plinth was not the only real difference. The the DD and BD turntables are very different designs.

I did not write anything about the "lively cartridge". I thought the SP 10 mk3 turntable to be a rather lively sounding turntable based on what I had read and based on my listening experience with the SP10 mk2 that I heard in a different, non-Panzerholz plinth with this same friend. Compared to my SME turntable, yes, the sound was rather lifeless, not just to me, but also to my friend who owned the turntable. I had not actually heard of anyone describing that particular turntable as lifeless before. We were both quite shocked. We speculated that it was the plinth material.

I assure you that I am no expert, and many of my local friends think my opinion has become quite suspect, but I appreciate the sentiment. Something about my friend's turntable was causing the life to be sucked out of the music. I do not know what it was, but we speculated that it was the plinth. I think one must find a way to manage resonances, not just add or dampen them. Each material has its properties. Too much resonance, and the music can get blurred and distorted. Too little, and it can sound dull and over-damped sounding. To be clear, I am not advocating ringing or creating distortion to add life to recorded music. Just as I wrote above in my post from a year and a half ago, I think one should listen to the results and choose which he prefers. My friend and I did that, and we both prefered the sound of the belt drive suspended SME with two damped steel chassis to the unsuspended DD SP10 mk 3 in the beautiful and massive Panzerholz plinth.

Are you addressing this interesting listening session that you reported in 2017 ?
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...technics-sp10-mk3-and-sme-model-30-12a.24184/

Reading your posts at that time and your friend emails I could not conclude that the Technics with the Panzerholz plinth sounded "lifeless". In fact the discussion was centered on the glare and coolness and glassiness , something we debated in terms of being a DD, not on the plinth.

 

[bonzo75]

I think we now need to decide whether to decouple this thread or instead add sympathetic dissonance

 

[PeterA]

Are you addressing this interesting listening session that you reported in 2017 ?
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...technics-sp10-mk3-and-sme-model-30-12a.24184/

Reading your posts at that time and your friend emails I could not conclude that the Technics with the Panzerholz plinth sounded "lifeless". In fact the discussion was centered on the glare and coolness and glassiness , something we debated in terms of being a DD, not on the plinth.

Yes Francisco. That’s the very comparison I made in 2016. It was an interesting thread. Please read my quote in this thread again. I did not describe SP10 as lifeless. I described it as “rather lifeless compared to the Sme 30/12.

Regardless, Mark is reviving this discussion about Panzerholz specifically because that’s what he has in his custom plinth for his Garrard turntable. I will leave the discussion about that material to those who are more familiar with it.

 

[microstrip]

Yes Francisco. That’s the very comparison I made in 2016. It was an interesting thread. Please read my quote in this thread again. I did not describe SP10 as lifeless. I described it as “rather lifeless compared to the Sme 30/12.

Regardless, Mark is reviving this discussion about Panzerholz specifically because that’s what he has in his custom plinth for his Garrard turntable. I will leave the discussion about that material to those who are more familiar with it.

I just can't understand how (I quote from your post) " Presence was great with both, and the SP10 may have dug slightly deeper with bass extension and bass articulation in the most demanding complex music. Drive was also slightly better, but dynamics were about the same. Violins sounded a bit steely with the SP10." (end of quote) can translate in your comparative comment.

IMHO we can't separate materials from implementation and its insertion in particular systems.

 

[Argonaut]

Condescension? Really?? I disagreed with someone you like. Sorry. But you are coming across as just a complete dick. And you earned that the old fashioned way.

You need help. DDK doesn’t.

I could not have wished for a more illustrative response.

 

[Robert Young]

I could not have wished for a more illustrative response.

Being a bit surprised about the reaction against a couple of my posts, i went back to look at what started this kerfuffle, and realized that Rensselaer had edited out the most offensive parts of his post, leaving a rather innocuous one behind.

i guess it’s OK to be offensive and then edit one’s post before more people see it. A flaw in the editing feature….perhaps. It certainly taints the context to which one responds.

i apologize for my boorish posts, and if i can, I’ll eliminate them just as Rensselaer did his. I meant to call someone out for mean-spiritedness, and became just that. I ahall withdraw from further participation.

 

[tima]

don't be perplexed. the thread is a thinly veiled vehicle to advance a particular narrative.

Ah Mike, that's pure snark. There is no narrative and no hidden agenda. There are some who have a different opinion than your advocacy -- that doesn't qualify as a conspiracy. This thread has a lot of good open discussion on the use and value of panzerholz.. The side conversation between David and Emile on - for lack of a better term - "electrical anomolies" was excellent.

Rensselaer - I don't know why you are churning the waters. You can be happy with your panzerholz plinth without requiring a double blinded listeming panel to prove ... something. It's an audio forum - don't expect agreement from everyone - there will be different opinions.

​

 

[tima]

I ahall withdraw from further participation.

Don't do that. Your posts are interesting.

Fwiw, the best way to capture a post before it is edited is to capture its entirety in a reply.

 

[bonzo75]

No, I do not say my TAD System is not Emotional.
If you remove the emotion of music then there is nothing to enjoy.
emotion is not against transparency.

TAD is just less Emotional than Living Voice and Living Voice is just less real/Transparent than TAD.
Both TAD and Living Voice are Highly regarded but their presentation is different.
More accurate means more accurate to the recording and more real sounding.

For judging a component for example I do not add tubes (like tube preamplifier or hybrid power amplifier) to a real/transparent system like TAD or wadax/Vitus/Tidal.
I also do not listen to a high feedback high power solidstate in an emotional system like living voice.
I do not listen to kondo cables in TAD system and also do not test Nordost cables in Living Voice system.

This is a very strawman argument. You are assuming that emotional systems with SETs or tubes are not transparent to recording, SS systems are. That is a very strawman tube SS argument.

 

[Rensselaer]

Being a bit surprised about the reaction against a couple of my posts, i went back to look at what started this kerfuffle, and realized that Rensselaer had edited out the most offensive parts of his post, leaving a rather innocuous one behind.

i guess it’s OK to be offensive and then edit one’s post before more people see it. A flaw in the editing feature….perhaps. It certainly taints the context to which one responds.

i apologize for my boorish posts, and if i can, I’ll eliminate them just as Rensselaer did his. I meant to call someone out for mean-spiritedness, and became just that. I ahall withdraw from further participation.

We have both apologised, and removed most of what we wrote that caused offence from this thread. Robert, and ddk, life is too short, let's start over from here afresh?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Ah Mike, that's pure snark. There is no narrative and no hidden agenda. There are some who have a different opinion than your advocacy -- that doesn't qualify as a conspiracy. This thread has a lot of good open discussion on the use and value of panzerholz.. The side conversation between David and Emile on - for lack of a better term - "electrical anomolies" was excellent.

of course, of course.......Lol......ignore that man behind the curtain.

i do absolutely agree it's not very hidden.

it's fair for you to say it was not your intent to advance a narrative, but just looking at it that's how it appears.

 

[rando]

Being a bit surprised about the reaction against a couple of my posts, i went back to look at what started this kerfuffle, and realized that Rensselaer had edited out the most offensive parts of his post, leaving a rather innocuous one behind.

i guess it’s OK to be offensive and then edit one’s post before more people see it. A flaw in the editing feature….perhaps. It certainly taints the context to which one responds.

i apologize for my boorish posts, and if i can, I’ll eliminate them just as Rensselaer did his. I meant to call someone out for mean-spiritedness, and became just that. I ahall withdraw from further participation.

WBF happily accounts for a wide range of interests that provide escape from audio.

Even the ones that can result in being called Sport while competing over a composite wooden surface.
Or are in disagreement with sedentary behavioral characteristics.

 

[Robert Young]

WBF happily accounts for a wide range of interests that provide escape from audio.

Even the ones that can result in being called Sport while competing over a composite wooden surface.
Or are in disagreement with sedentary behavioral characteristics.

What happens when audio is the escape??

“Sport” seems innocuous compared to some of the excised terms…

 

[japan-audio]

I used Panzeerholz for a couple of different turntables/ motor units. I started with a basis idea of Kaneta and used this foor Technics SP10 MKII motor units. But also for Sony TTS 6000/8000 motor units. Now I am working/planing an Experience P3/10 tuning. I already showed pictures from plinth at the Experience thread. I do not know if I should place them here again?
Panzerholz is may the best material at the mlment what is best for turntable plinth. The physical specs are not compareable tonany other. The weighg and also the multilayer constructon are perfect for audio use.
Only a few from me.

 

[davenrk]

Do you know where to buy little amount of Panzerholz in Europe?

 

[japan-audio]

I
How much do you need? Whst kind of size should this have? I think the big supplier only ofersfrom 1-2 m^2.
I have some different sizes here. So may you contact me directly here.