Panzerholz - its application in audio systems

[spiritofmusic]

Dave has gone on record saying Panz kills timbre, micro and macrodynamics. Well, that's pretty much music reproduction. This hasn't been my experience using Panz, and that's the stock Delignet, not even the 6x pricier Daiza.

So, we'll see. Panz out tmrw. Will it go back in? (Drum roll...)

 

[NorthStar]

Marc, you got the right spelling for "timbre".
I saw couple members typing "timber", no big deal but fun to read nonetheless when you know what timber means.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, I like my timbre timber. Woody, fleshy, organic, life affirming, rooted.

 

[KeithR]

I was positing merely friendly conjecture. I did not mean to imply that I think panzerholz is a good wood out of which to make musical instruments.

I meant to suggest only that since some woods are good for musical instruments and audio components, it would not be nonsensical to think that other woods are good for musical instruments and audio components.

why do we need to conflate audio components and musical instruments in the first place?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

why do we need to conflate audio components and musical instruments in the first place?

many audiophiles want a wood 'effect' involved somewhere in their signal path. opinion is that it's musical. analogous to tubes. nothing new.

lots of manufacturers show their wood cabinet and a wood instrument in advertising. a message they are sending.

not new concepts. it's reality........not anything one needs to agree with.

for myself i really don't consciously think about wood in my system, but likely have more than anyone by far. my Adona racks use heavy granite/cherry shelves, my speakers weigh 3000 pounds, and each tower is 2000 layers of baltic birch. + 18 Dazia's.......so far. my room walls are all finished cabinetry including my ceiling. the front third of the floor is hardwood.

whatever wood does, i guess i like it plenty.

 

[microstrip]

Kaiser uses Panzerholtz (or "Tankwood") in their speaker cabinets and baffles (the new Furioso series). So does Artesania and Kroma in their racks and speaker stand platforms. (...)

Artesania has two distinct lines of racks - the classic line, extremely rigid and made from metallic elements, essentially sleeveless, and a new line called organic. They claim that the good sounding properties of the new racks are due to the complimentary action of the two materials used, Panzerholtz and Krion, that are closely bonded using a special adhesive. Krion is a stone like material (mineral based) used in applications such as countertops or bath products.

 

[DaveC]

The problem with those is they introduce a very high frequency peak, this can easily be +20dB, also the cutoff frequency can be rather high, like 100Hz or higher, due to often limited mass. So then you would actually introduce a resonance of +20dB at 100Hz above which it just rolls off with a normal filter slope, so actual “isolation” starts at a much higher frequency. This can most definately make the sound muddy / dull / lifeless. In this case the isolation is not the culprit, but the self resonance of the created filter is.

That makes sense, thanks. I had no idea you could create peaks like that!

 

[microstrip]

many audiophiles want a wood 'effect' involved somewhere in their signal path. opinion is that it's musical. analogous to tubes. nothing new.

lots of manufacturers show their wood cabinet and a wood instrument in advertising. a message they are sending (...)

I would consider that currently wood became associated with warmness and coloration in the high-end, or in some cases with luxury. I love the aspect and feeling of wood, but do not feel attracted for its use in audio equipment. I reserve it to ceiling, lightning and non audio furniture, although I had no problem owning excellent sounding wood based box speakers.

 

[marty]

Here are some measurements performed on tonearm materials (including panzerholz). I would expect material frequency respons to directly impact total system frequency response in this application.

https://www.reed.lt/5174/research/wood-vs-the-rest-testing-armtube-material/

I loved the Reed wood tonearm resonance data when I first saw it some time ago. I still do as I think there is a Reed tonearm in my future for a variety of reasons. This is very nice data I can wrap my arms around! But examination of the data leads to more questions than it answers, at least for me.

1) To begin, the control response of the system is missing. What is the response of the system without any tonearm? That's an important control and without it, what the tonearm is doing or contributing to the result cannot be meaningfully interpreted.
2) What does the "acoustic properties under perfect conditions" mean exactly? Why is a 40dB rise from 0.5 to 0 Hz "perfect"?
3) Let's assume that the "perfect" response is as they say; namely perfect (translation= most desirable?) Well, then what do we make of an arm such as cocobolo that is up 20dB from "perfect" at 0.5Hz and down 20dB from "perfect" at 0.2 Hz? Is this good or bad?
4) Pick any response for any of the illustrated woods? What is the sonic effect of the responses shown? In my system, or any system, is the idea to re-create the "perfect" response with your chosen tonearm wood? I have no earthly idea. Do I want a response typified by Wenge or Red Cedar, or other? Pernambuco anyone?
5) Seems to me the only way to tell is to try one and see if you like what you hear. This is the classic "ice-cream theory" of choosing audio gear. (i.e. there's vanilla, chocolate and strawberry. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice). I don't see any shortcut around that approach for picking your Reed tonearm wood.

So the data is the data. I don't have any reason to doubt the methodology, but I have no idea what it really represents, Nor do I know what to make of the data presented for the various woods in terms of what might be best in my system. No doubt the woods may all sound slightly different. But the fact that we are indeed dealing with a system just adds to the complexity of the issue. Wood "A" might sound best with cartridge "X" , but wood "B" might sound better with cartridge "Y", etc. What guidance other than listening is there to figure that out?

The variation for most of these woods is in the range of 0 to 1 Hz. Does that truly matter in most systems, for which we can assume has a lower limit of reproduction significantly above 1 Hz? Wish I knew. If someone told me they chose cocobolo because they liked the color and it sounded good in their system, it would be hard for me to find fault with that rationale despite any of the data generated by Reed for the various tonearm woods.

I wish it were easier than that to know the correct choice for tonearm wood for a Reed. If anyone has other insights that might be helpful, I hope you'll share them.

 

[Taiko Audio]

But given the anecdotal stories I can't help but wonder if it's mainly reflective...

Interesting thought, I did the math on that a very long time ago. Will take a look if I can dig it up or redo. From memory it was still damping at a surprisingly high frequency though.

 

[Folsom]

Interesting thought, I did the math on that a very long time ago. Will take a look if I can dig it up or redo. From memory it was still damping at a surprisingly high frequency though.

Internally for what it absorbs, ok. For whatever is in contact with it? Two different questions.

 

[tima]

I would consider that currently wood became associated with warmness and coloration in the high-end, or in some cases with luxury. I love the aspect and feeling of wood, but do not feel attracted for its use in audio equipment. I reserve it to ceiling, lightning and non audio furniture, although I had no problem owning excellent sounding wood based box speakers.

Wood can change over time - chip, splinter, warp, crack. Doesn't matter how heavy or thick. Laminated wood MAY hold up better. Phenolic injected laminated wood product maybe better still in terms of shape retention. I too love the look and feel - I have a lot of wood in my audio room. But no way would I have wood components, with the exception, maybe, of speakers.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Internally for what it absorbs, ok. For whatever is in contact with it? Two different questions.

Well the impedance mismatch is significant as you would expect. But it does not appear to provide a blocking action.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I loved the Reed wood tonearm resonance data when I first saw it some time ago. I still do as I think there is a Reed tonearm in my future for a variety of reasons. This is very nice data I can wrap my arms around! But examination of the data leads to more questions than it answers, at least for me.

1) To begin, the control response of the system is missing. What is the response of the system without any tonearm? That's an important control and without it, what the tonearm is doing or contributing to the result cannot be meaningfully interpreted.
2) What does the "acoustic properties under perfect conditions" mean exactly? Why is a 40dB rise from 0.5 to 0 Hz "perfect"?
3) Let's assume that the "perfect" response is as they say; namely perfect (translation= most desirable?) Well, then what do we make of an arm such as cocobolo that is up 20dB from "perfect" at 0.5Hz and down 20dB from "perfect" at 0.2 Hz? Is this good or bad?
4) Pick any response for any of the illustrated woods? What is the sonic effect of the responses shown? In my system, or any system, is the idea to re-create the "perfect" response with your chosen tonearm wood? I have no earthly idea. Do I want a response typified by Wenge or Red Cedar, or other? Pernambuco anyone?
5) Seems to me the only way to tell is to try one and see if you like what you hear. This is the classic "ice-cream theory" of choosing audio gear. (i.e. there's vanilla, chocolate and strawberry. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice). I don't see any shortcut around that approach for picking your Reed tonearm wood.

So the data is the data. I don't have any reason to doubt the methodology, but I have no idea what it really represents, Nor do I know what to make of the data presented for the various woods in terms of what might be best in my system. No doubt the woods may all sound slightly different. But the fact that we are indeed dealing with a system just adds to the complexity of the issue. Wood "A" might sound best with cartridge "X" , but wood "B" might sound better with cartridge "Y", etc. What guidance other than listening is there to figure that out?

The variation for most of these woods is in the range of 0 to 1 Hz. Does that truly matter in most systems, for which we can assume has a lower limit of reproduction significantly above 1 Hz? Wish I knew. If someone told me they chose cocobolo because they liked the color and it sounded good in their system, it would be hard for me to find fault with that rationale despite any of the data generated by Reed for the various tonearm woods.

I wish it were easier than that to know the correct choice for tonearm wood for a Reed. If anyone has other insights that might be helpful, I hope you'll share them.

1) I don’t know
2) It seems they consider panzerholz to be the “perfect condition”, atleast I think graph 1 is panzerholz. It is to 0.5 KHz (500 Hz) btw.
3-5) Well in a tonearm it could possibly feedback to the cartridge and translate to an electrical signal altering the frequency response.
20dB up at 500Hz and 20dB down at 200Hz seems significant

 

[spiritofmusic]

As they say in Eurovision "And now the results from the United Kingdom"

Removed my stock Delignet Panz slabs from under both my Revopod'ed Zus.

No way is this any revelation, just my personal finding in my personal system. And combining a specialist footer w Panz under a spkr may be no useful datapoint outside this arrangement.

Findings so far, subtle but definite. First impression is that soundstage width is a little narrower, which feels a negative.

However there is a real cleaning up of upper mids into lower treble. My Zus w their quasi full range drivers and Radian supertweeters output over 12kHz are not the last word in laser like treble extension, so any changes here are always fascinating.

Extra treble bite and upper mids articulation is certainly adding to a more dynamic presentation.

Despite Dave's comments, not picking up any impvts in timbre. Piano etc still sound v authentic, as instruments did w the Panz in

I'll draw some more conclusions after 48hrs. Will keep a note of the tradeoff of soundstage versus dynamics.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Emile, my spkrs are situated directly on vinyl-covered timber suspended floor. I had been running my Zus on stock spikes in my old apartment, on a solid non suspended timber on concrete floor, then progressed to Symposium Rollerblocks on Svelte platforms.

Moved here to the suspended floor, kept the Rollerblocks/Svelte system going, and progressed to my current: floor > Svelte > Panz > Revopods > Zus.

Now the Panz is out of the equation, and I may try removing the Sveltes next.

 

[PeterA]

many audiophiles want a wood 'effect' involved somewhere in their signal path. opinion is that it's musical. analogous to tubes. nothing new.

lots of manufacturers show their wood cabinet and a wood instrument in advertising. a message they are sending.

not new concepts. it's reality........not anything one needs to agree with.

for myself i really don't consciously think about wood in my system, but likely have more than anyone by far. my Adona racks use heavy granite/cherry shelves, my speakers weigh 3000 pounds, and each tower is 2000 layers of baltic birch. + 18 Dazia's.......so far. my room walls are all finished cabinetry including my ceiling. the front third of the floor is hardwood.

whatever wood does, i guess i like it plenty.

Mike, don't forget the wood on the Master Signature. It may not be much, but it is part of the magic for that cartridge (with the Stradivarius lacquer). And then there is your Durand record weight. Yes, you are into wood for sure.

 

[PeterA]

Wood can change over time - chip, splinter, warp, crack. Doesn't matter how heavy or thick. Laminated wood MAY hold up better. Phenolic injected laminated wood product maybe better still in terms of shape retention. I too love the look and feel - I have a lot of wood in my audio room. But no way would I have wood components, with the exception, maybe, of speakers.

Tim, what about the wood and lacquer finish in your favorite cartridge?

 

[spiritofmusic]

And then there is the wood between the ears of many listeners.

 

[PeterA]

Emile, my spkrs are situated directly on vinyl-covered timber suspended floor. I had been running my Zus on stock spikes in my old apartment, on a solid non suspended timber on concrete floor, then progressed to Symposium Rollerblocks on Svelte platforms.

Moved here to the suspended floor, kept the Rollerblocks/Svelte system going, and progressed to my current: floor > Svelte > Panz > Revopods > Zus.

Now the Panz is out of the equation, and I may try removing the Sveltes next.

Marc, how are you compensating for the new tweeter height? Increased articulation seems like a good thing.