Peter A.’s System: A Perspective on Natural Sound

[Audiophile Bill]

Piano now is no problem at all on my system (after all the acoustic and set-up changes, see above). No transient edge that "hurts", nothing, even when played loudly. "The total absence of box colour in the lower register but with big juicy tonal colour and weight". Yes, I get that too. The latter not like live, no system does, but to a large extent (box color is practically non-existent).

Strings can be more problematic sometimes -- when played loudly --, but that has improved dramatically as well.

Strings can be a pita to be fair. Especially to get both the speed and transients coupled to authentic tone.

 

[morricab]

Sure, Brad, you don't like my Octave amplification, I know that. If you would hear my system you would be shocked, and maybe even fall off your chair. It would not at all sound as you think -- dare I say, much more natural. With much better timbre than you think (I believe I can safely deduce this from your previous posts on the subject).

I did carefully consider my reaction, and came to the conclusions I always have. There is nothing wrong with the system, except a few distortions that I have already very much reduced with my more recent changes in set-up, but which I cannot completely eliminate. I am pretty sure these remaining distortions have little to do with my amplification or DAC (which I both have heard elsewhere too), and more with room and perhaps the speakers (even though these are also much more capable than I had anticipated initially), and perhaps with in-wall electrical wiring which I intend to have changed at some point. I did apply a very slight bit more speaker toe-out after hearing Peter's system.

Nothing is perfect, and overall I still like my version of "natural" the best for my own tastes. I hear distortions in every system, by the way, including in Peter's.

It’s ok Al, I knew the self-reflection I was asking from you is likely a bridge too far given your self-investment in your system. I tend to use jarring experiences like you described to reassess and improve but you decided it’s “fine” and got used to it again... no worries.
I am 100% certain though your system offers nothing I haven’t heard. And yes, I know your main system components very well and know what they bring to the party.
I have owned this brand of speaker and had them in very good acoustic environment. They are good for what they are...Octave, well, to each his own I guess...

 

[morricab]

You have wise words, Brad. I just returned from 4 days at my mum and dads. I heard my dad playing around 1.5hrs each day - various stuff including Bach, Schubert, Beethoven, Chopin and Ravel. Anyway - never did I hear any of the leading edge that draws attention to itself or hurts in any way. Just not there at all. This was sat around 10 feet from his Mason & Hamlin grand. Yes it is nimble and quick with no overhang unless he is using the pedal. One area that stuck out for me was the total absence of box colour in the lower register but with big juicy tonal colour and weight.

There is attack of course but it is whole with the entire dynamic envelope of a note and should almost be subliminal and of a piece. This true for practically all instruments.

 

[morricab]

You have wise words, Brad. I just returned from 4 days at my mum and dads. I heard my dad playing around 1.5hrs each day - various stuff including Bach, Schubert, Beethoven, Chopin and Ravel. Anyway - never did I hear any of the leading edge that draws attention to itself or hurts in any way. Just not there at all. This was sat around 10 feet from his Mason & Hamlin grand. Yes it is nimble and quick with no overhang unless he is using the pedal. One area that stuck out for me was the total absence of box colour in the lower register but with big juicy tonal colour and weight.

You should sense the action of instruments, weight of pushing keys and hammers on strings, dampers etc. Pull of bow on strings...not screeching but sensation of pulling object and n object... this gives liveness...sense of action ... missing with 99% of hifi.

 

[morricab]

Strings can be a pita to be fair. Especially to get both the speed and transients coupled to authentic tone.

One of my top system requirements is to get violin as real as possible...piano too

 

[Lampie519]

My requirements are to hear each voice individually in a choir...
To hear (feel) the lowest note an organ can produce...
To hear musicians and conductors "humming" during their performance...
All of these i have accomplished except...
They do not yet stop humming when i "shush" them...

 

[Al M.]

It’s ok Al, I knew the self-reflection I was asking from you is likely a bridge too far given your self-investment in your system. I tend to use jarring experiences like you described to reassess and improve but you decided it’s “fine” and got used to it again... no worries.
I am 100% certain though your system offers nothing I haven’t heard. And yes, I know your main system components very well and know what they bring to the party.
I have owned this brand of speaker and had them in very good acoustic environment. They are good for what they are...Octave, well, to each his own I guess...

Hehe, Brad, no surprises about your reply . Think whatever you want, that's fine.

 

[Al M.]

C weighted Is how it’s usually measured for audio as far as I know. It measures about 20 db higher!

If I can believe an SPL meter where you could switch between A and C, the difference is about 5 dB. But that's on average. The loudness curves for A and C weighting vary wildly through the frequency range.

 

[morricab]

Piano now is no problem at all on my system (after all the acoustic and set-up changes, see above). No transient edge that "hurts", nothing, even when played loudly. "The total absence of box colour in the lower register but with big juicy tonal colour and weight". Yes, I get that too. The latter not like live, no system does, but to a large extent (box color is practically non-existent).

Strings can be more problematic sometimes -- when played loudly --, but that has improved dramatically as well.

If you like jazz violin then the recordings of Adam Baldych on ACT are a must listen. They will expose HF flaws but sound amazing when right...even loud...

 

[morricab]

Hehe, Brad, no surprises about your reply . Think whatever you want, that's fine.

Just don’t sell your system as natural when it struggles with strings and gives a knee jerk aggressive feeling when you have heard something with that absence, ok?

 

[Andrew S.]

It’s ok Al, I knew the self-reflection I was asking from you is likely a bridge too far given your self-investment in your system. I tend to use jarring experiences like you described to reassess and improve but you decided it’s “fine” and got used to it again... no worries.
I am 100% certain though your system offers nothing I haven’t heard. And yes, I know your main system components very well and know what they bring to the party.
I have owned this brand of speaker and had them in very good acoustic environment. They are good for what they are...Octave, well, to each his own I guess...

Abit tough don't you think?

I didn't take understand Al.M to be saying that. Or for that to be the case. Gravitating to one owns spend is natural enough, as is comparing something to one's own lived experiences. Beyond that, I didn't take Al to be doing anything other than explaining how he felt about things.

No criticism is leveled. Just my observation.

This topic and discussion - antipathy aside - is very interesting, incidentally.

 

[Al M.]

Abit tough don't you think?

I didn't take understand Al.M to be saying that. Or for that to be the case. Gravitating to one owns spend is natural enough, as is comparing something to one's own lived experiences. Beyond that, I didn't take Al to be doing anything other than explaining how he felt about things.

No criticism is leveled. Just my observation.

This topic and discussion - antipathy aside - is very interesting, incidentally.

Thanks, Tom.

I would also add that when, as I described in my opening post, the violinist and other players came sitting so close to the audience for performing String Quartet #12 by Rihm, after all the other music had sounded from further away in that concert, that was also a shock and a jarring experience in sound.

Not quite unlike the shock that I felt upon hearing my system again after experiencing Peter's. Sure, it's not the same thing. Yet in both cases it was a pronounced difference in sound, with a marked change in perceived transient behavior as well.

 

[Andrew S.]

Thanks, Tom.

I would also add that when, as I described in my opening post, the violinist and other players came sitting so close to the audience for performing String Quartet #12 by Rihm, after all the other music had sounded from further away in that concert, that was also a shock and a jarring experience in sound.

Not quite unlike the shock that I felt upon hearing my system again after experiencing Peter's. Sure, it's not the same thing. Yet in both cases it was a pronounced difference in sound, with a marked change in perceived transient behavior as well.

4-part harmony has a habit of doing that to me - - chord progressions, melody writing, bass lines, counterpoint, rhythm, texture - always messes with my head...

 

[tima]

The more I think about "leading edge", 'transient response' or 'leading edge transient response' the less I believe I know what those words mean.

These are sonic words, audiophile speak.

"Leading edge" refers to the start of a note?

When you sit close to musicians and their instruments during a live performance of unamplified music, there is often a more pronounced “leading edge” to the notes, a more pronounced initial transient.

As you move further away in the performance space, the initial transient is less emphasized, and the emphasis shifts to the sustain and decay phase of the notes.
...
Thus, Peter’s Natural Sound is one very particular perspective on what natural sound can be, a more mid-hall perspective with the sound characteristics that come with that, including a de-emphasized leading edge of transients. It is a unique take. A more close-up perspective with a more pronounced transient leading edge is of course not necessarily less “natural”, it may just reflect the sound characteristics of more close-up live music.

In music it is possible to accent a note with a specific type of marking in the score.

There are a variety of accents and accent marks from light to strong. The above is normal (marcato) accent. Staccato, a light accent, is shown with a dot over/under the note. Different instruments have different capacities for delivering accented notes. I understand an accented note as a more pronounced than one without an accent.

But that's not what people mean when they talk about leading edge transients. Those are not a function of the music or musicianship.

My questions are:
- What is a 'transient'?
- What is a 'leading edge'?

Even up close live does not have the same kind of leading edge attack that aggressive hifi systems have...it is simply something completely different and obvious to hear the difference. My daughter can blatt her trumpet right by my ear and it is STILL not got that synthetic leading edge bite that indicates agresssion.

I agree with Brad - it is audible. What is it that audio circuitry imparts that causes people to say there is a 'bite' at the start of a note, or to say the start of a note is "soft" or "rolled off". In the "Natural Sound" thread I suggested either is tied to a weak fundamental or lack of harmonics. That would be some sort of a frequency distortion, a problem of tonality?

As a character of a particular piece of gear I'd say this is an overlay, a homogenization.

One person may think leading edges, transients, high frequencies, are rolled off giving a further back presentation, a more relaxed sound, a rolled off sound, while someone else may think this is just more balanced. Listeners with the latter perspective may describe a more prominent leading edge or transient as an accent, a highlighting, with the result that the sound is more forward, less relaxed, more spectacular and aggressive. These are differences of degrees, and they are so dependent on one's perspective, preferences, and experience, that it is difficult to evaluate.

Peter seems to be suggesting the 'effect' is tied to the listener. Is it?

As suggested, "it" is audible. I've used these terms in reviewing and people seem to understand what I describe. Now, I'm not so sure what it is I"m describing.

 

[bonzo75]

It is easily audible.

In live we hear it whole, but while reproducing if you cannot hear the stroke correctly of a piano note with the body (very tough to do) and notes sound blunted it can get homogenized. In live we hear so many nuances intra note, in reproduced it easy to make the violin sound homogenized without variation.

Some highs and leading notes are hard and distorted. Others are dulled, blunted, and homogenized.

Getting it right is very difficult

Question is... Is there a conscious roll off or dulling in the system? It is hard to understand what is Peter's natural and what is Al's since we have never listened with them and Al doesn't care for videos

The videos here are excellent examples of how leading edge and transients should be to make it sound real. If people think this is hifi speak you can call this real and natural, and when not available, call it blunted.

 

[bonzo75]

The best transients and leading edges I have heard are when red sparrow is on a linear tracker and when the vdh Stradivarius is set up right. Decca London is excellent too.

Tang has a harpsichord LP. It shows the biggest difference I heard between the highs of vdh and his other cartridges. Of course this is an outlier and other LPs won't highlight that big a difference

 

[morricab]

The more I think about "leading edge", 'transient response' or 'leading edge transient response' the less I believe I know what those words mean.

These are sonic words, audiophile speak.

"Leading edge" refers to the start of a note?



In music it is possible to accent a note with a specific type of marking in the score.
View attachment 78722
There are a variety of accents and accent marks from light to strong. The above is normal (marcato) accent. Staccato, a light accent, is shown with a dot over/under the note. Different instruments have different capacities for delivering accented notes. I understand an accented note as a more pronounced than one without an accent.

But that's not what people mean when they talk about leading edge transients. Those are not a function of the music or musicianship.

My questions are:
- What is a 'transient'?
- What is a 'leading edge'?



I agree with Brad - it is audible. What is it that audio circuitry imparts that causes people to say there is a 'bite' at the start of a note, or to say the start of a note is "soft" or "rolled off". In the "Natural Sound" thread I suggested either is tied to a weak fundamental or lack of harmonics. That would be some sort of a frequency distortion, a problem of tonality?

As a character of a particular piece of gear I'd say this is an overlay, a homogenization.



Peter seems to be suggesting the 'effect' is tied to the listener. Is it?

As suggested, "it" is audible. I've used these terms in reviewing and people seem to understand what I describe. Now, I'm not so sure what it is I"m describing.

As near as I can tell it’s simply distortion of some dynamic type that manifests in “sharp” leading edges that are distinctly audible from the full note development. It can show up in excessive vocal sibilants. Masses strings can sound very strident as a result and the more complicated the music the more likely it is to be excited and be unpleasant.
I think it has a lot to do with the high frequency linearity of the electronics...truly clean high frequency amplification does not seem to give this result.

 

[tima]

As near as I can tell it’s simply distortion of some dynamic type that manifests in “sharp” leading edges that are distinctly audible from the full note development. It can show up in excessive vocal sibilants. Masses strings can sound very strident as a result and the more complicated the music the more likely it is to be excited and be unpleasant.
I think it has a lot to do with the high frequency linearity of the electronics...truly clean high frequency amplification does not seem to give this result.

I've read (crossing myself) objectivists see an association with amplifier slew rate. Maximum change of voltage or current per unit of time. But it seems like an 'overshoot'.

The notion applies to low frequencies too, doesn't it?

 

[tima]

I like that video. Milstein was a great violinist.

 

[Andrew S.]

The videos here are excellent examples of how leading edge and transients should be to make it sound real. If people think this is hifi speak you can call this real and natural, and when not available, call it blunted.

Oh...dear me.

I must respectfully disagree with you.

I found the YouTube Video (and thank you for posting it incidentally) about as far away from natural as I could be.

It has the very etched front edge aggressiveness and over wrought emphasis which I personally abhor, and which doesn't reflect my personal experience of what the sound of a violin is. A violin is, in my respectful opinion, also not as large and forceful as that is. That sounded....amplified.

But then I very sensitive to this particular type of sound. Probably why in box speakers, I much prefer silk dome tweeters and paper cones. Particularly with SS.

Please accept my apologies if I have offended in anyway. It is not my intention. And of course what is one man's wine is anothers poison.

I would be very interested to see what Tima feels about the posted video.

Rgds

T.