Phono cable recommendations?
- Thread starter JayT
- Start date
How are you wiring the cable from the cartridge to the phono amp? I looked at the Mogami web site and they have XLR to XLR but no DIN or SME V compatible cable. Is your tonearm wired for XLR or RCA. Just curious as to which Mogami cable to get which would work with an SME V tonearm with DIN connection. Thank you in advance.
The pins of the cartridge are pins 2 and 3 of the XLR. Pin 1 is the tonearm ground and is the same in both channels. In the tonearm DIN connector, pin 3 is the middle pin and that is ground- so the shields of both channels tie there. To put this another way, the DIN connection that you see on an SME or Graham arm is a balanced connection. We use the Mogami console cable for this as its low capacitance.
Oh, sorry! I didn't see this, but it's fortuitous that I did as, thanks to WBF member @BruceD, I'm now thinking that electrically burning in a new cable is only part of the process, and the cable may also need to be mechanically de-stressed as well.
The reason for this is there are mechanical stresses in a cable from manufacture and spooling, then de-spooling when the wire or cable is used. When the new wire/cable is un-spooled, the position of the insulation vs the conductor is sure to change to some degree, and this will cause either new stresses in the insulation, or it will release stresses that were formed in the spooling or manufacturing process. I believe this is due to the insulation being elastic, so when a wire is bent the insulation on one side is being pulled apart and on the opposite side it's being compressed. In both cases there will be potential energy within the insulation that wants to return the material to it's resting state, where it has the least amount of potential energy, just like how an elastic band wants to return to it's original length when pulled. The problem with this is it seems to affect the electrical burn-in of a cable. When I ship a new cable, handling during shipping will require the cable to need additional burn-in, but this problem is not an issue with older demo cables that have been shipped a lot and used a lot. I believe these cables have been more fully mechanically de-stressed.
Anyways, I didn't intend to write a book so I'll stop here, but wanted to mention this as a confounding issue that has made me unable to process the effectiveness of burn-in devices, I have little confidence in my observations TBH. They definitely seem to work, but to what degree has been extremely variable... I hope a mechanical de-stressing process will remove most of this variability.
It is the difficult question as cables do not exist in splendid isolation. I tried both the Siltech and Nordost and settled for the Siltech. If you like an adrenaline rush, the Nordost was wonderful but I just couldn’t live with an adrenaline rush forever. The Siltech was understated but it provided a very musical sound, notes and harmonics were where they should be. And for a Siltech, it is actually good value. I have tried Siltec’s more expensive phono cables and yes, you can go swinging but I ain’t so sure it is much better. The Avondale II was a big improvement compared to the first version.
I totally concur with what you have written. When I take my system apart to clean contacts it takes many hundreds of hours to optimize again even though I may have cooked my cables as part of my cleaning regime.
It baffles me how many dealers don't optimize their setups with correct burn in- which includes de- stressing of cables and so much more- only to change setups or connections several times a month and then expect customers to hear the potential of that system in any meaningful way.
Even enthusiasts that run their systems for a few hours a week or are continually are moving things around--- I know both types of folks--- they will never realize the potential or true sound of their systems.
Thanks for the follow-ups. If burn-in and mechanical destressing are different actions, can you say how to mechanically destress a cable? Is it just letting the cable sit in place?
From doing reviews of some of their cables I learned that Shunyata performs a factory process on their top-line signal cables that, they say, permanently eliminates the need for burn-in. They also advocate giving a new cable time to 'settle-in' before evaluating it.
I wish I could give you a definitive instruction. I realized that there were two phenomena when I muddled with my system.
1. New cables benefit from a burn in cycle. Most of the new or demo dealer stock that I take home sounds horrible in different ways. The last outright example was a couple of lengths of clear beyond interconnect that I have in my system. I loved the attributes the CB brought to a friend's system but just could not get the same benefits when I borrowed a pair for testing. I gave them back to the dealer. Someone in our group had a cable cooker and I re-engaged the CB after burn in and they were transformed in every positive way possible. I demoed this to some of my group . 2 audiodharma cable cookers were sold out of this group within the week based on my results. I have nothing to do with audiodharma other than I am a customer.
2. When I move components around or insert different pieces in the system and alter interconnects I notice a distinct loss of coherence and "pinched" shelving of the mid frequencies on my system... after a settling period could be a few hours or a few days either my ears get accustom to the change or... I may wrongly attribute it to settling of the physical wire. Not sure. It is consistent though and I have a few trusted listeners that notice the changes. In reading some articles it seems that others including some manufacturers note the mechanical stress affects the dielectric charge in relation to the cable's construction precipitating a change in performance. I guess I am buying this because the action of moving the cable has an impact to how things sound to me.
We have tried measuring the electrostatic filed difference in the area of the cable by bending them. There is a difference. If this makes a sonic difference I don't know ... however, I and my associates in our group definitely hear something.
Take it all for what its worth... I think Cardas has an article on this on their site.
I am inclined towards the idea that "everything matters" but basically believe that in real-life this adds up to 'wow that was a good recording session today' or 'wow that sounded good today'. Trying to quantify this into a repeatable scenario seems like matching snowflakes. Just my 2c...
That's interesting. Though I have no means to test, theoretically dielectric polarization has an effect on the 'fragile' millivolt sized signal running through a phono cable. I don't know if the effect is outsized relative to, say, a phonostage to linestage signal. Do you have any other manufacturer reference or further comments on the impact of mechanical stress on insulation and dielectric charge? I'll look at the Cardas site.
I can imagine insulation as pulled out of shape, perhaps stretched thinner or bunched thicker in spots with the possiblity of it returning to a nominal state over time as the cable 'settles' - but that's just speculation on my part. I'd be surprised if that is audible, but I've been surprised before. Versus a technique that reduces or impedes the whole absorbtion and relaxation phenomena, where the result is a small but audible increase in clarity or lack of time-smearing.
I can also imagine the possibility of mechanical stress on copper crystal boundaries. Again speculation.
I found an article on the Cardas site here.
Maybe something like this?
Making This Nordic Spirit Means Crossing the Equator Twice
By happy accident, Norwegian distillers realized their aquavit benefitted from the humid conditions of an 1805 sea voyage. Learn why the practice is still in place to this day.
vinepair.com
IME, demo cables that have been used and shipped around a lot maintain their burn-in far better vs new cables. I think the way the cable is handled during shipping mechanically de-stresses the cable, but this results in the dielectric shifting vs the conductor, which then requires more electrical burn-in.
Naim has a machine that shakes their cables. I'm looking into some sort of shaker table, these are often used to pack filter material evenly into containers, like activated carbon filters, to prevent channeling.
I agree and I also use a balanced phono cable to the balanced input in my Einstein mono block phono preamps. Then I use a balanced cable out from the phono preamp to the system preamp. Balanced phono cables put out signals that are twice as loud as unbalanced (+6dB) and this is much-needed with such a small signal. Also, the two lines are out of phase, so they cancel the noise in the signal. Twice the signal and noise removal. What is there NOT to like about this? Why isn't EVERYONE using balanced for vinyl? Who prefers a noisier signal that's half as loud?
It’s not the phono cables putting out the +6db it’s the input setting on your phono setting, depends how you set it.
david
This is only true if the balanced phono preamp isn't supporting the balanced standard. In the balanced standard ground is ignored (just like we see with a phono cartridge hookup- its only for shielding). But many high end audio units ignore the standard and so reference ground- in effect, creating two single-ended outputs out of phase with each other. This latter method will get you 6dB more output if both phases are amplified as opposed to one (because you are doubling the input voltage). There is still some benefit from doing this but it is not as profound as when the balanced standard is observed.
There are some common misconceptions of what constitutes a balanced signal, and hence, balanced cable requirements. Friedrich Schaefer addressed this years ago in his excellent manual for the ASR Basis Exclusive phono preamp. in summary, a phono cartridge is an inherently balanced device and although many tonearms only output RCA cables, a cable adapter can easily be made to take advantage of your phono stage if it is a balanced design. The essentials are here:
2.2 Connecting the tone arm cable
Moving Coil (MC) and MM cartridges can be connected to the ASR Basis Exclusive.
Balanced or unbalanced connection can be used at the inputs of the Basis Exclusive !
But we strongly recommend the use of balanced connection !
The ASR Basis Exclusive is designed for using the balanced input and has best results only with balanced input connection.
!! Cartridges are like microphones the only balanced sources from their construction !!.
With unbalanced connection at the input you don’t have the full possible sound quality.
The use of the balanced output is not obligatory together with the use of the balanced input.
Definition of a Balanced connection :
A balanced tone arm cable must have two conductors and a separate shielding.
This shielding has to connected separately to ground and should never be connected to the plus or minus wires- otherwise you will get heavy distortions, cause the shield will work as antenna !
Balanced cables can be connected at both the RCA or the XLR plug. Both inputs sockets are internally connected. The RCA inner pin is connected to Plus, the outer ring to Minus.
The pins on the XLR sockets are international standard: 1 = Ground, 2 = Plus 3 = Minus.
The only advantage of using XLR is that the third pin 1 can be used for ground connection of the shield. At RCA the shield must be connected separately to the big ground pole plug connector.
A tone arm cable that has already two wires and be converted simply by connecting the shield to ground ( the black pole plug at the Basis ) instead of to the outer ring at RCA what is minus.
Please connect the ground cable of your turntable to the (black) pole terminal on the back panel.
ASR Audio Systems Friedrich Schaefer, D- 35 745 Herborn +49 (27 72) 42 905
2.2 Connecting the tone arm cable
Moving Coil (MC) and MM cartridges can be connected to the ASR Basis Exclusive.
Balanced or unbalanced connection can be used at the inputs of the Basis Exclusive !
But we strongly recommend the use of balanced connection !
The ASR Basis Exclusive is designed for using the balanced input and has best results only with balanced input connection.
!! Cartridges are like microphones the only balanced sources from their construction !!.
With unbalanced connection at the input you don’t have the full possible sound quality.
The use of the balanced output is not obligatory together with the use of the balanced input.
Definition of a Balanced connection :
A balanced tone arm cable must have two conductors and a separate shielding.
This shielding has to connected separately to ground and should never be connected to the plus or minus wires- otherwise you will get heavy distortions, cause the shield will work as antenna !
Balanced cables can be connected at both the RCA or the XLR plug. Both inputs sockets are internally connected. The RCA inner pin is connected to Plus, the outer ring to Minus.
The pins on the XLR sockets are international standard: 1 = Ground, 2 = Plus 3 = Minus.
The only advantage of using XLR is that the third pin 1 can be used for ground connection of the shield. At RCA the shield must be connected separately to the big ground pole plug connector.
A tone arm cable that has already two wires and be converted simply by connecting the shield to ground ( the black pole plug at the Basis ) instead of to the outer ring at RCA what is minus.
Please connect the ground cable of your turntable to the (black) pole terminal on the back panel.
ASR Audio Systems Friedrich Schaefer, D- 35 745 Herborn +49 (27 72) 42 905
The only issue with this is pin1 of the XLR jack on the phono pre end will probably make the same connection as the ground cable if the system uses a DIN plug with ground cable or std IC cables with a separate ground cable.
So, the industry standard for XLR is to connect pin1 to shield at BOTH ends of a cable and to chassis close to the input inside the component, the idea being the shield is an extension of the chassis.
If you are using XLR plugs with a ground cable or DIN phono plug you will probably get best results leaving pin 1 disconnected at the preamp, and having it only connected at the DIN plug.
However, there's no standard for this so it's also possible the preamp design will allow for pin1 to be connected, which depends on the preamp, but I have run into cases where there was less noise with pin1 not used. The issue is you may have more noise with pin1 connected but never realize the issue and end up with a system that's noisier than it could be.
So IMO, there is no good reason to use XLR plugs for phono, you can run balanced with RCA using both legs, as long as the phono pre doesn't ground out the normal ground leg and uses it as you'd normally use pin3 on an XLR. Using XLR for phono leaves the issue described above, so IMO providing XLR in an a phono pre is a questionable decision as there's no good reason for it, it can lead to confusion and more noise.
Yes , I totally agree with this and XLRs on phono can cause more problems than it solves.
Furthermore, it is , for the most part, easier to find good sounding RCA connectors than good sounding XLRs. IMO, YMMV and all that.
Its a good idea to have pin one be the tonearm ground and the shield of the interconnect cable, and there most definitely is a standard for this, as was explained the excellent post immediately above yours. Since pin 1 is the same thing as the chassis, when you connect the ground wire the shielding system is complete.
The use of a DIN connection does not alter this in any way. Pin 3 of the DIN connection is the tonearm ground; this becomes the shield of both channels and therefore is connected to pin 1. In this way, there is no signal current of any sort in the shield; the ground is ignored by the balanced input of the phono section.
The 'good reason' to use XLRs is so that the system is plug and play- no fiddling with ground wires, and also when RCAs are used for a 'balanced' connection the problem you run into is that the RCA has a center pin and a barrel connection. Because the center pin is inside the barrel connection, there is the ability for the barrel to pick up noise (in practice, a bit of buzz) since at this point in the connection you loose common mode protection. You certainly would not want to touch this connection with the volume up! The right way to do it is to do it the way the system was engineered and use a balanced connector like an XLR.
Apparently you didn't actually comprehend my post, or didn't read it, lol.
My post is about using XLR IN COMBINATION WITH ground wires specifically.
DIN plugs have a pin for ground wires, that's how it's different. If the tt doesn't have DIN it often still uses ground wires, but not all the time.
Also, you totally mistook the pin1 standard for the non-existent grounding standard between signal and chassis ground, and in this instance isolation between the pin1 connection and a separate ground connection for the ground wire. Please take the time to read, and comprehend what you're reading before you answer a post! If you don't you should ask for clarification and not assume things.
The issue is the ground wire AND Pin1 are 2 separate ground connections... and you don't see an issue here? Lol, sorry I know you are a balanced advocate, while I think it's ridiculous to use balanced for home audio, but what you wrote is simply a strawman, it is unrelated to what I actually wrote, your entire post is an answer to the strawman you just created.
