Poll: Objective Measurements versus Subjective Reviews

[Phelonious Ponk]

So given a free-form choice, how would you phrase yours?

I start with an understanding of the company's design philosophy and methodologies, what they believe in and what they attempt to achieve. I believe that measurably more accurate reproduction produce subjectively better sound. I also believe that such performance is achievable at reasonable price points and that systems much north of $20k (for speakers and amplification) are as much about status and cache as they are about performance, often more. That approach led me to actives. If I were in the market today, it would lead me straight to the products of Harman Kardon and Siegfried Linkwitz to do my listening.

Tim

 

[amirm]

I start with an understanding of the company's design philosophy and methodologies, what they believe in and what they attempt to achieve. I believe that measurably more accurate reproduction produce subjectively better sound. I also believe that such performance is achievable at reasonable price points and that systems much north of $20k (for speakers and amplification) are as much about status and cache as they are about performance, often more. That approach led me to actives. If I were in the market today, it would lead me straight to the products of Harman Kardon and Siegfried Linkwitz to do my listening.

Tim

Quick note Tim. Harman Kardon is a consumer, mass market line for Harman (the parent) company and doesn't share any design philosophy with the rest of the company's product lines. It is based to compete in the lowest price point, with many products likely built by OEMs in China/Taiwan. Revel, JBL Synthesis, etc. are the lines that get the benefit of R&D we have spoken of.

 

[rbbert]

... I also believe that such performance is achievable at reasonable price points and that systems much north of $20k (for speakers and amplification) are as much about status and cache as they are about performance, often more...
Tim

All I can say is: you need to get out more

edit: a speaker/amp combo from Linkwitz will run far north of $20k.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Quick note Tim. Harman Kardon is a consumer, mass market line for Harman (the parent) company and doesn't share any design philosophy with the rest of the company's product lines. It is based to compete in the lowest price point, with many products likely built by OEMs in China/Taiwan. Revel, JBL Synthesis, etc. are the lines that get the benefit of R&D we have spoken of.

I'm old, Amir. Adding that "Kardon" is a reflex.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

All I can say is: you need to get out more

edit: a speaker/amp combo from Linkwitz will run far north of $20k.

Linkwitz has several designs below that range, and they lose little but a bit of deep bass.

Tim

 

[rbbert]

Linkwitz has several designs below that range, and they lose little but a bit of deep bass.

Tim

I'm only familiar with the system he showed at RAMF 2012, which IIRC with all amps, x-overs, etc, ran close to $30k, and that was without a rack (essential for all the electronics and cables, even with the relatively inexpensive multi-channel amps he was using) and with pretty ugly cabinet work on the speaker. And although the system sounded OK for the price, it was far outshone by many other systems there.

 

[the sound of Tao]

It's interesting that with 95% of people saying they would listen to gear before buying just how many people there are out there who regularly buy gear without having heard it.

I know of a few people who do it all the time and it's fairly common to read on forums people taking a chance on something unheard because it isn't available locally, are buying second hand, are ordering a model prior to release or just shortly after, are buying a bit of gear only having heard a model below or above it in the range, or just buying because they love buying and trying and then have no concerns about flipping gear down the track to get something else new. It's interesting that this hasn't reflected at all in the poll.

I'm a fairly safe option #3 but I'd have expected something less than 95% answering that they would listen to gear before buying given how often you see people asking for advice on forums about gear and then taking the punt based on some feedback or review (formal or informal), because of brand reputation, to get in on something that's been previewed at a show overseas, special promotion and marketing tease like crowd funding, or more commonly in the midst of the heat of the latest must have hot new gear internet buzz.

 

[PeterA]

So summarizing the poll, roughly 85% of the people who voted put some value on measurements. Only 15% ignore it and in those, 0% trust a review by itself.

Yes, the fact that 85% of the people who voted put SOME value on measurements is not at all surprising. That is a vast majority and what I would have expected.

Interpreting the results in a different way tells me that only 5.26% rely mainly on measurements to select gear. That surprised me. The other two threads had me believing that a much higher percentage of people rely mainly on measurements to select gear and rely on listening and reading reviews much less. I was thinking 50% measurements, 35% listening and 15% on everything else, for instance, though there was no data to support this, it was just my sense from reading the various posts.

It is clear that most people rely on a combination of resources. This makes sense, but it is counter to the notion that there are two distinct "camps", the objective camp and the subjective camp. It seems that there is more overlap than the notion of opposing camps would suggest. This is what I referred to as the "tone" of the other threads. To me, they read more like a passionate argument than a reasoned discussion between people who feel more or less the same about the topic. Perhaps I was overly influenced by the more polemical members who joined the discussion.

 

[PeterA]

It's interesting that with 95% of people saying they would listen to gear before buying just how many people there are out there who regularly buy gear without having heard it.

I know of a few people who do it all the time and it's fairly common to read on forums people taking a chance on something unheard because it isn't available locally, are buying second hand, are ordering a model prior to release or just shortly after, are buying a bit of gear only having heard a model below or above it in the range, or just buying because they love buying and trying and then have no concerns about flipping gear down the track to get something else new. It's interesting that this hasn't reflected at all in the poll.

I'm a fairly safe option #3 but I'd have expected something less than 95% answering that they would listen to gear before buying given how often you see people asking for advice on forums about gear and then taking the punt based on some feedback or review (formal or informal), because of brand reputation, to get in on something that's been previewed at a show, special promotion and marketing tease like crowd funding, or more commonly in the midst of the heat of the latest must have hot new gear internet buzz.

This is a good observation about which I am also curious. I have bought cartridges without first having heard them and only based on the strong recommendation from a good friend whose opinion about music and audio I respect. Cartridges are difficult to audition, especially in one's own system.

And yes, there are quite a few threads on the forums started by people asking about a component that they can not hear before buying. And they end up buying it after reading the advice on the forums. This was not reflected at all in the poll, but perhaps that is because this may not be the way they buy most of their gear or because the poll was not designed properly to reflect this.

 

[amirm]

There are certainly other selection criteria than in the poll. Strict objectivists for example would buy an AVR completely based on features. It is a given that it has the right audio fidelity to them. Frankly I don't remember the last time I auditioned an AVR. I have a dozen of them and they are all bought based on features and the last one, a Pioneer AVR with class D amplifier, because I needed something that generated least amount of heat in our entertainment center in our living room (it powers our TV sound). Likewise strict objectivists buy sources, cables, etc all with equal consideration of fidelity (i.e. all sound the same) and no auditioning. Only for loudspeakers do they listen.

If you exclude this camp, then yes, naturally the rest of us use a combination of factors to evaluate gear with different weights put on them.

 

[ddk]

I guess I don't fit in any of categories. I don't and haven't read audio reviews for nearly 20 years, they won't sway me either way. There are things that just look right, there won't be any hesitation if I need it or can afford it but mostly I select some equipment on specs and/or conversation with manufacturer and buy only after listening. Talking or listening to manufacturer's videos are most informative, there are too many morons and/or crooks out there who just can't wait to out themselves, just give them a few minutes.

Never bought anything based on measurements yet there are times that I do buy out of curiosity.

david

 

[rbbert]

...Interpreting the results in a different way tells me that only 5.26% rely mainly on measurements to select gear. That surprised me. The other two threads had me believing that a much higher percentage of people rely mainly on measurements to select gear and rely on listening and reading reviews much less. I was thinking 50% measurements, 35% listening and 15% on everything else, for instance, though there was no data to support this, it was just my sense from reading the various posts...

My reading comprehension must be a bit different than yours, because 5% of this group seems about right or a little high to me for mainly measurements. Other than perhaps Phelonious Ponk (who actually has posted that he doesn't), I can't think of anyone who would rely mainly on measurements, and I suspect no one would for speakers.

 

[PeterA]

There are certainly other selection criteria than in the poll. Strict objectivists for example would buy an AVR completely based on features. It is a given that it has the right audio fidelity to them. Frankly I don't remember the last time I auditioned an AVR. I have a dozen of them and they are all bought based on features and the last one, a Pioneer AVR with class D amplifier, because I needed something that generated least amount of heat in our entertainment center in our living room (it powers our TV sound). Likewise strict objectivists buy sources, cables, etc all with equal consideration of fidelity (i.e. all sound the same) and no auditioning. Only for loudspeakers do they listen.

If you exclude this camp, then yes, naturally the rest of us use a combination of factors to evaluate gear with different weights put on them.

Interesting. Do you think there are any "strict objectivists" on this forum? If so, then they must listen only to digital, or do they think all analog sources sound the same too?

Your clients who buy AVRs must also watch video, but surely they are not strict objectivists who do not audition video sources, thinking they all look the same?

 

[esldude]

It's interesting that with 95% of people saying they would listen to gear before buying just how many people there are out there who regularly buy gear without having heard it.

I know of a few people who do it all the time and it's fairly common to read on forums people taking a chance on something unheard because it isn't available locally, are buying second hand, are ordering a model prior to release or just shortly after, are buying a bit of gear only having heard a model below or above it in the range, or just buying because they love buying and trying and then have no concerns about flipping gear down the track to get something else new. It's interesting that this hasn't reflected at all in the poll.

I'm a fairly safe option #3 but I'd have expected something less than 95% answering that they would listen to gear before buying given how often you see people asking for advice on forums about gear and then taking the punt based on some feedback or review (formal or informal), because of brand reputation, to get in on something that's been previewed at a show overseas, special promotion and marketing tease like crowd funding, or more commonly in the midst of the heat of the latest must have hot new gear internet buzz.

I made a recent speaker purchase. So maybe a description of that process would mean something. I might and have purchased electronics on specs along with reputation of the company. Loudspeakers I have not done that. I have purchased some speakers sight unheard if buying second hand. If it works okay, if not I resell. I got my Soundlabs that way. Of course I had plenty of reasons to think I would like them.

My recent purchase was for some small nearfield monitors. I had started recording as a hobby, and it became apparent I needed some good monitors for mixing and editing. A field I knew nothing about really. I looked on forums where recording people hang out, and searched for their suggestions for modest sized monitors. Unusually for any such question, about 90% of those giving opinions for monitors below $1000 picked the same one. Of the other 10% it appeared half or less had heard the most common suggestion. So unusual to see such agreement. I had just searched for available monitors like that and there many dozens to choose from. The speaker repeatedly suggested was the JBL LSR305. A speaker I had never heard of before then. I had of course known about Toole and Olive's work at Harman for a few years. This speaker is a result of that program.

Still wasn't certain not having heard them. Of all the goofy things, there is a site that records such things with a couple condenser mikes in the near field in a treated studio well away from any reflection points so you can compare speakers. On its face the whole idea seemed rather dubious to me. I spent some time listening to those files for several speakers ignoring that JBL and a couple other competitors. Well, I was surprised, it seemed you could get a very good handle on the relative basic frequency character of different models that way. I was listening over Beyer DT880 phones I owned for years and over my Soundlabs. So a big question about accidental departures from accuracy that might happen to work with the coloration of my listening device. With nothing other than my subjective perception that seemed not to be much of a problem. Which was very surprising to me. That maybe you can listen through a device you know.

So after that I listened to the recordings of the JBL and two other speakers. I could perhaps have been biased by knowledge of Harmans work, but in the recordings the JBL was head and shoulders above the others I heard. So they weren't expensive and I decided I would give it a go. If it turned out horribly I could resell new speakers at not such a great loss for the experience. One part of that site plays you music from the file and switches to the speaker mid stream. Only two speakers managed not to sound horrible when that was done. One was this JBL (actually its bigger brother too), and the other was a much more expensive Focal.

Well, those little things are flabbergastingly good. Stupid good, and stupid cheap. I have let a couple friends hear them and they have the same opinion. So good you sort of marvel over it for awhile. In one case I sat them directly in front of some $12k speakers. They're self powered so I only needed some cables from the pre-amp in use. We listened pretty happily to those for about 3 hours. Neither of us thought it equalled the $12k speakers, but they were stupid good.

So that proves nothing. But it makes it easier for me to believe Harman is onto something that brings better no BS performance at lower pricing. The Revels do nothing to contradict that idea either at a higher price and performance point. And remember those recording guys were at the recordings so they have a bit better reference to judge such things.

So would up close reflection free recordings of speakers be a good way for people to compare at a distance? I am pretty sure it beats the heck out of reading some guy's review in print. Better still might be to hear speakers that were recorded playing music in an anechoic chamber. You get some idea of the speakers basic transparency. You could get the recorded result and the signal it was playing. Sort of a bypass test of speakers. It has plenty of pitfalls, but it has some interesting usefulness. With the internet, and abilities to send sound and video such out of the box methods of reviewing are bound to add something to simply reading another guy's unreferenced opinion.

 

[amirm]

Interesting. Do you think there are any "strict objectivists" on this forum?

Not this second but yes, we have those members. Arnky and Ethan Winer come to mind. I don't remember Steven's alias (Krabapple on AVS) but he is another.

If so, then they must listen only to digital, or do they think all analog sources sound the same too?

All believe in digital being better than analog and as such, having that as their only format.

Your clients who buy AVRs must also watch video, but surely they are not strict objectivists who do not audition video sources, thinking they all look the same?

My company is not a good example to use here. We are a custom electronics company and not a retail shop where people come to shop for things. We spec AVRs and TVs for customer living room and bedrooms as part of a much larger, whole house audio/video solution and they trust whatever we spec. We interview them in advance to see how much they care about the fidelity here. Vast majority are not picky about video and even they are, in most cases they don't want to spend money on high performing video produces. OLED TVs for example are the pinnacle of display performance but I don't know that we have sold any. People just don't want to pay 5X more to get proper video. In contrast, we may sell a $300,000 theater with $200,000 of that for the audio system.

I have friends that routinely ask me for recommendation for video product but they too don't want to spend hardly any amount of proper video displays. AVRs by the way, don't have video quality issues these days since both sources and outputs are 1080p (putting aside 4K for now) so there is no processing in the AVR. It is a switcher and digital pass-through.

Ironically in video, there is little debate about what is correct video. All content complies with a reference and once you calibrate your display to the same, you are essentially seeing what the director/talent approved. Video can be frozen in time on one frame, instrumentation used to measure and the eye to check should there be trade offs. While there used to be fights about display technologies and to some extent there still is, the high-end versus low-end, objectivist vs subjectivist battles essentially don't exist.

Sorry, giving you a long winded answer. Hopefully what you asked was in there .

 

[amirm]

I should mention another class of customer for high-end audio that is not being considered but in reality is at the core of the high-end industry. It is what we call "a music lover." This is a person who wants to listen to great music but has absolutely no knowledge of the actual electronics or cares to learn. It is all about the music to them and "having the best" relative to their wealthy friends. Often they have a "representative" which does the surveying and listening for them but outside of that, they write a big check for what they expect to be the best of the best. Some of the most profitable dealers are there are those that have these customers. These customers don't spend hours in the showroom debating what is good with the salesman, return things, buy them again, they don't read reviews, go to forums, or even deal with the company selling them the product. They want the best. They want it on a silver platter and that is that. Money is not a consideration and time is spent on other things than worrying about what gear to buy. If they hear about something better, they just throw out the current expensive system and buy another.

My company has such customers although we supply them the rest of the products than high-end audio. That they buy from others and we routinely see them what we lust here, into the garage and replace it with another . Gary may be able to give examples of his customers in this class. When I ask high-end companies where they make money, these are the customers they talk about. You all are the necessarily evils to deal with but not where they make their money .

I don't care how wealthy you think you are. Compared to these customers, you will feel poor.

 

[esldude]

I should mention another class of customer for high-end audio that is not being considered but in reality is at the core of the high-end industry. It is what we call "a music lover." This is a person who wants to listen to great music but has absolutely no knowledge of the actual electronics or cares to learn. It is all about the music to them and "having the best" relative to their wealthy friends. Often they have a "representative" which does the surveying and listening for them but outside of that, they write a big check for what they expect to be the best of the best. Some of the most profitable dealers are there are those that have these customers. These customers don't spend hours in the showroom debating what is good with the salesman, return things, buy them again, they don't read reviews, go to forums, or even deal with the company selling them the product. They want the best. They want it on a silver platter and that is that. Money is not a consideration and time is spent on other things than worrying about what gear to buy. If they hear about something better, they just throw out the current expensive system and buy another.

My company has such customers although we supply them the rest of the products than high-end audio. That they buy from others and we routinely see them what we lust here, into the garage and replace it with another . Gary may be able to give examples of his customers in this class. When I ask high-end companies where they make money, these are the customers they talk about. You all are the necessarily evils to deal with but not where they make their money .

I have run across those dealers. Travelled 4 hours with a friend once to such a dealer as he had amps my friend wanted. He also rep'd the speakers my friend had so we thought he could hear them with his speakers. We found out, by explicit explanation from him, after mostly ignoring us in his empty shop, that he preferred customers ready to spend $50k or more on a complete system (this was 20 years ago). Customers who would describe their wishes and leave it up to him. Write the check when he was done. He wouldn't even play anything for us. He had my friends speakers setup in one of his listening rooms. He had the amps my friend wanted to hear in the corner. He only needed to bring in some speaker cables and connect them. He refused to do so even though that small effort likely would have netted him a near $10k sale that afternoon. He was twiddling his thumbs on a Saturday afternoon, but unwilling to make the effort unless we wanted a total system which he would choose. I am glad to say he went out of business a few years later. Good riddance.

Now I understand if that was his business and we were that type customer. He was perhaps providing a service. But to refuse doing anything since we weren't didn't sit well with us.

 

[amirm]

I have run across those dealers. Travelled 4 hours with a friend once to such a dealer as he had amps my friend wanted. He also rep'd the speakers my friend had so we thought he could hear them with his speakers. We found out, by explicit explanation from him, after mostly ignoring us in his empty shop, that he preferred customers ready to spend $50k or more on a complete system (this was 20 years ago). Customers who would describe their wishes and leave it up to him. Write the check when he was done. He wouldn't even play anything for us. He had my friends speakers setup in one of his listening rooms. He had the amps my friend wanted to hear in the corner. He only needed to bring in some speaker cables and connect them. He refused to do so even though that small effort likely would have netted him a near $10k sale that afternoon. He was twiddling his thumbs on a Saturday afternoon, but unwilling to make the effort unless we wanted a total system which he would choose. I am glad to say he went out of business a few years later. Good riddance.

Now I understand if that was his business and we were that type customer. He was perhaps providing a service. But to refuse doing anything since we weren't didn't sit well with us.

This is rather typical unfortunately. One of the most well-known high-end dealers is across the street from us and we often get customers who come to us strictly for that reason: they walked in, got treated as if they don't have enough money to shop there, and they run out in disgust. Bad for that dealer because the wealthy people in our region routinely don't show how much money they have in how they dress, drive, etc. I got great service from that company by the way since we spent north of $500K with them through our Microsoft account.

While I am telling you guys how the sausage is made , you all should know that behind your backs, few manufacturers or dealers have positive things to say about audiophiles. They consider such sales high-hassle and high-touch. And while they may smile and deal with you, in reality we all make for pretty lousy customers compared to someone who comes and buys a system as I have explained. I would estimate that audiophiles are probably 10% of the overall sales of the high-end industry. Again I welcome the high-end manufacturers to give their insight into their customers but this is the story I am told day in and day out.

 

[DaveC]

I'm only familiar with the system he showed at RAMF 2012, which IIRC with all amps, x-overs, etc, ran close to $30k, and that was without a rack (essential for all the electronics and cables, even with the relatively inexpensive multi-channel amps he was using) and with pretty ugly cabinet work on the speaker. And although the system sounded OK for the price, it was far outshone by many other systems there.

+1,000,000,000 (cause +1 just doesn't cut it around here )

Value for money at a lower relative price I would go with Odyssey, hands down. Klaus' $6900 system crushed many others at far higher prices including SL imo.

I also have high hopes for ELAC with Andrew Jones designing.

 

[NorthStar]

I should mention another class of customer for high-end audio that is not being considered but in reality is at the core of the high-end industry. It is what we call "a music lover." This is a person who wants to listen to great music but has absolutely no knowledge of the actual electronics or cares to learn. It is all about the music to them and "having the best" relative to their wealthy friends. Often they have a "representative" which does the surveying and listening for them but outside of that, they write a big check for what they expect to be the best of the best. Some of the most profitable dealers are there are those that have these customers. These customers don't spend hours in the showroom debating what is good with the salesman, return things, buy them again, they don't read reviews, go to forums, or even deal with the company selling them the product. They want the best. They want it on a silver platter and that is that. Money is not a consideration and time is spent on other things than worrying about what gear to buy. If they hear about something better, they just throw out the current expensive system and buy another.

My company has such customers although we supply them the rest of the products than high-end audio. That they buy from others and we routinely see them what we lust here, into the garage and replace it with another . Gary may be able to give examples of his customers in this class. When I ask high-end companies where they make money, these are the customers they talk about. You all are the necessarily evils to deal with but not where they make their money .

I don't care how wealthy you think you are. Compared to these customers, you will feel poor.

That is a strange post. ...Strange customers.