I wonder what is the purpose of this thread. Is it just to collate numbers of subjectavist 'v' measurement guys? If so do we get a percentage at the end of it telling us how many make up what camp. May be of some interest to market researchers somewhere but you might as well ask how many people are prodomantly left brain thinkers (logical thinking) against right brain thinkers (emotional/creative thinking). Viewed from this angle ie what hemisphere people prodominatly live in, there is no correct way to look at a subject (although at times neither camp may see the others point of view) as the protagonists come from completely different view points. The important part is to remember someone may have, and is entitled to, a completely different view point from yourself! One of the great things about this is that if both parties approach the subject of discussion with an open mind and tries to either 'understand' or 'feel' the others argument then growth or enlightenment can take place which helps to expand your knowledge and experience! Ain't that sooooo cool?
Poll: Objective Measurements versus Subjective Reviews
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
Subjectivists will also be able to include objective elements in their POV..as the poll shows..
Objectivists will not ever include anything subjective... a minority over here anyway..as the poll shows..
Objectivists will not ever include anything subjective... a minority over here anyway..as the poll shows..
While I am telling you guys how the sausage is made, you all should know that behind your backs, few manufacturers or dealers have positive things to say about audiophiles. They consider such sales high-hassle and high-touch. And while they may smile and deal with you, in reality we all make for pretty lousy customers compared to someone who comes and buys a system as I have explained. I would estimate that audiophiles are probably 10% of the overall sales of the high-end industry. Again I welcome the high-end manufacturers to give their insight into their customers but this is the story I am told day in and day out.
That seems entirely typical here too. I regularly pop in to my local dealer to chat, kick tyres and listen to whatever, and it's almost become a standing joke there that I rarely actually spend any money. On the other hand they occasionally mention custom install projects they have lined up, and without knowing the nitty gritty detail, it's clear that's where the real meat is. It's exactly as you say, Amir, people want something high-end to listen to music (and watch movies, frequently), they want it to be better than their friends, they're not price sensitive, they write a big cheque on the understanding that everything will be done for them and they won't have to think about it. And even in little ol' Ireland, some of the projects are mind-boggling.
Of course, not all of these customers are servicing massive music collections. There was one story (no names were ever mentioned) of a large install, many hundreds of thousands of Euro involved, that was completed to the customer's satisfaction. As a final job, the dealer was asked to provide "software". Not really being clear what was asked, the dealer pointed out that everything digital was running using the latest firmware or whatever. "No", said the customer, "I need CDs. Please buy 1500 CDs and put them on the bill..."
Anyway, I realise I'm completely off-topic here, apologies for that. To answer the question, I'd definitely tick box 3, if and when measurements are available. If not, I don't sweat it and let my ears to the judging.
I should mention another class of customer for high-end audio that is not being considered but in reality is at the core of the high-end industry. It is what we call "a music lover." This is a person who wants to listen to great music but has absolutely no knowledge of the actual electronics or cares to learn. It is all about the music to them and "having the best" relative to their wealthy friends. Often they have a "representative" which does the surveying and listening for them but outside of that, they write a big check for what they expect to be the best of the best. Some of the most profitable dealers are there are those that have these customers. These customers don't spend hours in the showroom debating what is good with the salesman, return things, buy them again, they don't read reviews, go to forums, or even deal with the company selling them the product. They want the best. They want it on a silver platter and that is that. Money is not a consideration and time is spent on other things than worrying about what gear to buy. If they hear about something better, they just throw out the current expensive system and buy another.
My company has such customers although we supply them the rest of the products than high-end audio. That they buy from others and we routinely see them what we lust here, into the garage and replace it with another
I don't care how wealthy you think you are. Compared to these customers, you will feel poor.
I agree with NorthStar. This is indeed a strange group of customers. Thanks Amir for discussing this kind of customer. They are not reflected in the poll because surely they don't read forums.
I'm sure the dealers and manufacturers love these guys who write the big checks and don't ask many questions or take up much of a dealer's time. They must represent large profits for the dealers. But I wonder this: Why call them the "music lover"? Do they have extensive music collections? Do they go to lots of live performances and study the musical scores? How does this name distinguish them from the rest of us who also love music? They should be called "whales" or "Mr. Profit" or something. What distinguishes them is their willingness to buy entire systems and not spend time auditioning equipment. They ask for the best, but they are willing to take someone else's word for whatever that is. The forums have endless discussions about the fact that there is no best. These guys will never really know if it sounds and looks (video) the best to them, because apparently they don't seem to care to learn for themselves. I guess what they do know is that it COSTS more than their neighbor's system. That seems vitally important to this so called "music lover."
I see how this goal can be accomplished if they are listening to and watching only digital. I was not aware before these measurement threads, that apparently these digital only AVR systems are feature based only and, except for speakers, the gear has the same video and audio quality. Dealers simply need to spec the system, calibrate the video for perfect picture, do the install and you are done. All these decisions based on specs and measurements. The shop assembles the specs, the customer writes the check. Call in the decorator. This is a straight forward path to profit. These guys should be called "whales".
These "whales" must not listen to any analog because Amir does not sell any. "Music Lover" is often used to describe the person who overlooks slight colorations in the system and is mostly simply engrossed in the music and the performance. Measurements seem secondary to most, but not all music lovers. Many of these listeners love analog, despite its many flaws. Some great music is still only available on LP.
It seems strange that this type of PAY WHATEVER IT COSTS TO GET WHAT SOME DEALER CONSIDERS THE BEST AND ASK FEW QUESTIONS type of customer is called "a Music Lover". If "whale" is not the better term for him, perhaps "savior" would work. And if these guys keep some of these businesses open so that there are resources for more R & D and a few brick and mortar shops still around, I say thank you for writing those checks.
It is to distinguish them from equipment lover
. It is to say the only thing they care about in buying a system is to listen to music. What gear is, or does is of zero interest to them. In that case, it is a pure case of equipment simply being there to play the music. It has no interest to them otherwise.We all have two other hobbies beyond loving music, one of which we don't talk about as much:
1. The equipment. Great enjoyment comes from the hunt for the next gear. Openning it on the day it arrives, and basking in the "smell" of it, and they way it just sits there when we first get it. And nowhere is this valued more than the high-end where great attention is made to this aspect of product.
2. Talking about it in forums. We think of this as part of #1 but it really isn't in my view. We spend time on forums and discuss these products because this itself, independent of buying gear, is an attraction/hobby itself. It is the social animal in us that has found audio as an excuse to spend time virtually with others. And as males, to see if we can rise up to the top of the heat to satisfy the hormones we are born with.
The "music lover" doesn't care about either one of these. They by definition are private people so #2 is out of the question. And once you have enough wealth where you are not trying to optimize any purchase, I am not sure the thrill of getting new gear matters anymore.
I don't have generalizations to offer. In some cases they do have incredible library of content. For video for examples, we sell some amazingly large Kaleidescape servers to host the massive library of DVD and Blu-rays some have (although there are enthusiasts who match and exceed them in this regard). At the same time, companies like Kaleidescape have collections of movies they can bundle with equipment because they may not have such.
Buying physical goods is actually a problem for these people with many homes, and inability to walk into a store or even buy things online. Their wishes is instant online access.
Per above, we have three hobbies, they only have one.
They do audition at times. Often manufacturers through their dealers send completely systems to them to listen although this may be yet another class of buyer that does that.
It is matter of priorities in life when you get to that level of success. Do you fly out to your private island some place and spend time with a loved one there, or do you go stereo store or spend time here?
No, people don't even pay for calibration anymore. There was a time when they did, and equipment was less performant. But today, spending $300 for such a thing even in a $300,000 purchase is not something they want to do. The picture looks fine as is to them. BTW, the high-end customers we had been talking about do buy turntables too.
I think calling them that goes too far. These people are highly successful and most very smart. You don't milk them like you do in a casino. We service for example a lot of high-tech executives and as you can imagine, they are no dummy.
??? I thought I explained that for high-end audio analog equipment they go elsewhere. We don't service all that they buy. But yes, vast number of them are fine with digital only solutions. Music is something they listen to for the sake of enjoying it, rather than worry about what fidelity loss may be there according to our rules of life.
I don't see it that way at all. In some sense, I am there with them in a smaller scale. Take my new canon DSLR camera. It costs $4,500. It used to be that if I bought a $1,000 camera, the excitement of just holding it my hand was even more than taking pictures with it. With this new camera, I got it, played with it for a couple of minutes, and I put it down, waiting to go on a photo trip with it. The excitement for me now is in taking pictures, not getting the gear. Wish I still worshipped the new smell
. But I have gotten past that and the function is what is important. No doubt someone who can't afford this camera, I can be called a "whale." It is all relative you know.So no when I hear about these people, to some extent envy the amount of time they save slaving on equipment and how focused they are on listening to what it does. We say it is all about the music. But in reality, vast amount of our energy is spent on things beside that.
Hi Caelin - can you please clarify this MONO comment? Did the Harman research actually involve blindly comparing JUST ONE SPEAKER from each manufacturer?
It is to distinguish them from equipment lover
We all have two other hobbies beyond loving music, one of which we don't talk about as much:
1. The equipment. Great enjoyment comes from the hunt for the next gear. Openning it on the day it arrives, and basking in the "smell" of it, and they way it just sits there when we first get it. And nowhere is this valued more than the high-end where great attention is made to this aspect of product.
2. Talking about it in forums. We think of this as part of #1 but it really isn't in my view. We spend time on forums and discuss these products because this itself, independent of buying gear, is an attraction/hobby itself. It is the social animal in us that has found audio as an excuse to spend time virtually with others. And as males, to see if we can rise up to the top of the heat to satisfy the hormones we are born with.
The "music lover" doesn't care about either one of these. They by definition are private people so #2 is out of the question. And once you have enough wealth where you are not trying to optimize any purchase, I am not sure the thrill of getting new gear matters anymore.
There is a fourth case: Someone who loves music, and the sound it makes. They have a deep involvement with their music and the reason they have an interest in audio is purely because of that musical involvement. In other words, someone who is so passionate about their music that they could listen to it on a broken Bluetooth speaker, but would ideally prefer to listen with as few limitations to that involvement as possible in the way.
Having met with thousands of enthusiasts over the years, and visited the homes of hundreds, I'd put the majority of them in this missing subset.
That you didn't even recognise this as a subset of this hobby says nothing good. You appear to be barking up a telegraph pole and thinking it's a tree.
??? I was defining who we are in this forum with "We all have..." Other than some snobs that have expressed otherwise, most of us are in that bucket you describe: that is, if the music is good, we want to listen to it, the equipment and fidelity be damned. At least I hope most of the people are like me in that regard. So I am kind of surprised that you think I don't know who I am. That may very well be true but ain't going to take that it sitting down.
So no, there was no attempt at showing full market segmentation because if we did, we would have to include 99% of the public that only listens to music for the sake of music and couldn't care less about the equipment or utmost fidelity. Indeed without them paying the bills, the music industry would not exist. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking we matter. We don't. We are just trying to parse a small part of the market's buying decisions and discussing it selectively. Having you not list the largest part of the market doesn't bother me. Hopefully it should not be the same in reverse for me discussing the top of the pyramid customer segmentation.
??? I was defining who we are in this forum with "We all have..." Other than some snobs that have expressed otherwise, most of us are in that bucket you describe: that is, if the music is good, we want to listen to it, the equipment and fidelity be damned. At least I hope most of the people are like me in that regard. So I am kind of surprised that you think I don't know who I am. That may very well be true but ain't going to take that it sitting down.
So no, there was no attempt at showing full market segmentation because if we did, we would have to include 99% of the public that only listens to music for the sake of music and couldn't care less about the equipment or utmost fidelity. Indeed without them paying the bills, the music industry would not exist. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking we matter. We don't. We are just trying to parse a small part of the market's buying decisions and discussing it selectively. Having you not list the largest part of the market doesn't bother me. Hopefully it should not be the same in reverse for me discussing the top of the pyramid customer segmentation.
You defined the music world as follows:
"Music lovers", which you define as, "the only thing they care about in buying a system is to listen to music. What gear is, or does is of zero interest to them. In that case, it is a pure case of equipment simply being there to play the music."
You differentiate this from an undefined (and possibly pejorative) "equipment lover"
You then define two more aspects of the hobby:
"The equipment. Great enjoyment comes from the hunt for the next gear." and, "Talking about it in forums."
Personally, I don't fit into any of these categories. For me, the equipment is a means to an end, but the better the means, the better the end. I will continue to search for and buy better equipment, but not because I get enjoyment from looking for the next piece of equipment, but because entailed within that process is greater involvement with the music. Which would make me a 'music loving audio enthusiast', and I don't think I'm in any way unique, but I'm factored out of your definitions.
Why?
It is difficult to accept the fascination of being an audiophile if do not accept that stereo sound reproduction is improving significantly along the years. Some audiophiles are in a continuous quest also because they feel that sound reproduction is not an absolute and can be a great hobby, including the social and cultural aspects.
This positive derive is part of our pleasure of listening to music. If any sound is rewarding, better and more spatially complex sound may be more pleasurable. This is part
of the ever-evolving entertainment industry (just quoting a known audio scientist).
This positive derive is part of our pleasure of listening to music. If any sound is rewarding, better and more spatially complex sound may be more pleasurable. This is part
of the ever-evolving entertainment industry (just quoting a known audio scientist).
Alan,
References to a tree should not be allowed in WBF unless we know your answer to this audiophile problem: "If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make sound?"
Alan,
References to a tree should not be allowed in WBF unless we know your answer to this audiophile problem: "If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make sound?"
It sounds like cheese, of course.
The pivotal question is then 'which cheese?'
No I didn't. I didn't try to define the music world. I shared a category of customers which the industry, not me, calls "music lovers." I explained why we call them that. I didn't invent the term, nor as I just said it was an attempt to define the market. I was explaining that there is a segment of high-end buyer that fuels the industry. They are called music lovers. I was asked why they were called that, and I explained why I think that is the case. Because they want to listen to their music and what the specifics of the gear that does that is not important, nor its price.
Pejorative? I am part of that camp. Why would I use that about myself?
No, you do fit in the categories I mentioned. You are here so you have the secondary hobby of discussing audio gear in forums. And you care what equipment you also have that hobby which is distinct from actually using the gear.
So you get no satisfaction out of searching and finding that piece of gear? The journey is of no value to you? I would doubt that very much but I will defer to your statement on that front.
We all love music. That is not the differentiator here. The differentiator is whether you also have the other two hobbies. Having fun finding that next piece of gear and talking about it in forums. The class of buyer I talked about does neither. But shares the common love for music with us nevertheless.
Fair enough.
Not really. The forum thing largely comes with the territory.
Largely, no. The equipment is a means to an end, and the better the means, the better the end. The journey is very much secondary to me. It didn't used to be, and I have no problems with those on the journey, but I trained myself out of that in order to remain dispassionate about any given DUT. The last thing the audio industry needs is yet another fanboy! I'm the same with cameras (they are tools: never buy a camera from me, they usually look like they have been through a war zone), but not the same with guitars.
Agreed.
Alan,
References to a tree should not be allowed in WBF unless we know your answer to this audiophile problem: "If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make sound?"
No wrong question. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, is it best recorded in digital or analog for someone to hear it after the fact?
Can I have some of what you smoking ?
It's very easy; just read some of the same stuff that I'm reading right here, in this thread, and others too. :b
EDIT: I deleted my above post...just too extremely sarcastic.
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