Popularity of a step-up transformer?

[Don_Camillo]

As a studied Engineer I trust in my personal experience and comparing set ups and do optimize my gear accordingly.

You also argued that those who don't seem to share your opinion about the sound of SUTs just haven't heard the really good SUTs yet.

May I please return the question nonchalantly?

Every decade had had its ToTL SUTs. Have you experience with all of these vintage TOTL SUTs also and compared all of them with other SUTs? All of them are particularly well-reputed, were well-reviewed in the gazettes of the time and should therefore be just as superior as ...?

So how can you doubt the limited experience of others when yours is also limited? Especially if you only use emotional feelings and no technical or measurable facts in your evaluation? Food for thought

 

[shakti]

You also argued that those who don't seem to share your opinion about the sound of SUTs just haven't heard the really good SUTs yet.

May I please return the question nonchalantly?

Every decade had had its ToTL SUTs. Have you experience with all of these vintage TOTL SUTs also and compared all of them with other SUTs? All of them are particularly well-reputed, were well-reviewed in the gazettes of the time and should therefore be just as superior as ...?

So how can you doubt the limited experience of others when yours is also limited? Especially if you only use emotional feelings and no technical or measurable facts in your evaluation? Food for thought

You are guiding the thread well into an off topic direction and start to make the arguments personal.

Do you believe, this will help the thread starter to find his best personal solution?

He has chosen WBF to ask his question. So I assume, that he is interested in getting personal advice and shared experience.

Otherwise he potentially should have asked in Amir's Forum for the step up with the best measurements.

 

[Don_Camillo]

You are guiding the thread well into an off topic direction and start to make the arguments personal.

I´m sorry but you did by arguing that people who answered might not have heard the correct SUTs so far or telling me I´d rather post on another forum if I want to see some reliable facts. Furthermore the question was not for the best sounding SUT but why they are so popular and what might be the benfit of using one.

In the following I have only shown you how short you are jumpin´ and how little our listening experience is worth, strictly speaking

 

[Kinn]

Dear Corinthian,

You can write to Dave Slagle of Intact Audio and/or Emia, he’ll advise a suitable step-up ratio for your cartridge. That is exactly what I did and very happy since then. Had Dave’s step-up connected to a built-in phono amp then, simply lovely. Had recently purchased a Threshold phonostage, now Dave’s step-up is connected to Fet Ten/E, Ma Ma Mia.

Do remember to set your phonostage to mm.

Best regards

 

[Jim Hagerman]

A sold chassis to avoid hum and vibration effects should be given.

Indeed. Easy to pick up hum from nearby power transformers if SUT is not properly shielded.

 

[Solypsa]

@Don_Camillo are you saying sut quality is a non issue provided basic specs ( as you identify ) are met? If so I imagine anything you might want could be found in the Jensen catalog, esp if recommended networks are attached. Is that the end of it?

 

[Don_Camillo]

@Solypsa that seems to be a misunderstanding. I said that any SUT needs to match electrically to the cartridge specs as there are inductance, impedance/dc coil resistance as well as it´s output voltag, the capacity and resistance of the phono input stage. That´s the reason why I also said that there´s no SUT that fits all MC cartridges.

From a technical perspective the SUT also offers the load that´s required to make the MC cartridge play with a linear frequency response. Thus stepup ratio/ amplification faktor is crucial to get a really good performance.

Conversely it´s natural that SUTs with different amplification factor/ stepup ratio will sound differently when paired with a MC cartridge and not changing technical specs for dc resistance,impedance, inductance and capacity as well as resistance of the phono input. Consequently these differences in sound do not define a good or a bad SUT but more likely point at a mismatch.

 

[DasguteOhr]

let's approach the matter theoretically. the pickup is a coil and so is the primary winding of the sut. This means that the coils are connected in parallel. the induced voltage is the same on both coils (let's leave out the line loss (tone arm cable). the resulting inductance is smaller than that of the single coils. the sut not only transforms the voltage, resistance, but also the capacitance in the transmission ratio. the capacitance ensures roll off in the treble, if the sut doesn't have enough bandwidth, it's immediately audible.
therefore it is extremely important to keep the capacity small in front of the sut. otherwise the pickup will be damped. it usually sounds tired and not agile and open, then it reminds me of old tube radios. although that is considered pleasant for many people.
good suts are encapsulated in mumetall, outside interference is rare. hum is caused by improper grounding. tonearm cable ground directly to the phono amp not to the sut. if it still buzzes, a separate ground wire from the phonoamp to the sut. has always worked for me for trouble-free music enjoyment.

 

[phoni]

There is a simple rule of thumb: the cartridge's impedance should be mirrored by the sut, otherwise no linearity of the audio signal is possible. Is the cart's impedance lower the frequency response rises to the top end, is it higher it drops. In Japan you will find lots of articles that describe this circumstance and the resulting possibilities of influencing the sound with it.

 

[shakti]

I´m sorry but you did by arguing that people who answered might not have heard the correct SUTs so far or telling me I´d rather post on another forum if I want to see some reliable facts. Furthermore the question was not for the best sounding SUT but why they are so popular and what might be the benfit of using one.

In the following I have only shown you how short you are jumpin´ and how little our listening experience is worth, strictly speaking

Yes indeed, the question was, why SUT are so popular. The Thread starter tried a simple Ortofon ST-70, another one tried an Audio Note ANS-3. For me this two are entry level SUT, compared to the other components (Gryphon) the thread starter is using.

To unterstand, why SUT are popular, I stick to my first given answer answer to go to a dealer and to ask for a loan of a reference SUT, this will help to understand the popularity of SUT (or not, if a SUT might not work in the given environment).

As the thread starter seem to have not a lot experience with SUT, I gave two examples of globally available and well known reference SUT.

I can go with your statement, that my listening experience is too low and not worth to share for the questioned subject.

This is a Forum, always some members benefit from the written comments, others not.

I do write in this way since some years in WBF and received a lot of positive feedback, so I am going to continue my way,
even if there will be always someone with a different opinion or a different way to judge the quality of components.

 

[Don_Camillo]

I can go with your statement, that my listening experience is too low and not worth to share for the questioned subject.

Thanks for clarification. But I didn´t say "your experience", I wrote "our experience". And I did that on purpose because listening experience is a highly individual experience and to about 99% driven by psychoacoustics.

So understanding the main principles of how SUTs are working, how to selet the one that fits to your MC cartridge and what issues SUTs can solve is crucial for understanding what effects the sound.

I love the rule of thumbs mentioned by @phoni. I should have started with something like that because it´s simple to be understood and clarifies a lot about what effects the sound when using SUTs and eliminates all of the technical things most people are not really interested in.

 

[phoni]

@Don_Camillo

please check out the new IO-M at Kondo. The revised version of this MC has no longer 1 ohm but now 1.5 ohms. Consequently, the SUT was adapted in parallel!

 

[wart]

let's approach the matter theoretically. the pickup is a coil and so is the primary winding of the sut. This means that the coils are connected in parallel. the induced voltage is the same on both coils (let's leave out the line loss (tone arm cable). the resulting inductance is smaller than that of the single coils. the sut not only transforms the voltage, resistance, but also the capacitance in the transmission ratio. the capacitance ensures roll off in the treble, if the sut doesn't have enough bandwidth, it's immediately audible.
therefore it is extremely important to keep the capacity small in front of the sut. otherwise the pickup will be damped. it usually sounds tired and not agile and open, then it reminds me of old tube radios. although that is considered pleasant for many people.
good suts are encapsulated in mumetall, outside interference is rare. hum is caused by improper grounding. tonearm cable ground directly to the phono amp not to the sut. if it still buzzes, a separate ground wire from the phonoamp to the sut. has always worked for me for trouble-free music enjoyment.

Ussually these days buzz comes from 3 main sources if to speak about SUT:
1. Tonearm grounding and tonearm itself. Some of tonearms hums by design.
2. Cable between SUT and Phono must be shielded. No exceptions.
3. Loose connections. Many years ago manufacturers used standard rca socket female/male dimensions. Not today.

 

[Solypsa]

.
3. Loose connections. Many years ago manufacturers used standard rca socket female/male dimensions. Not today.

Yes I notice this too. Not sure how many variations there are for RCA dimensions these days.

Personally I would be happy if all connections were xlr ( even if not balanced ).

 

[mtemur]

please check out the new IO-M at Kondo. The revised version of this MC has no longer 1 ohm but now 1.5 ohms. Consequently, the SUT was adapted in parallel!

I have some experience with Kondo. I installed 7-8 Kondo IO-M cartridges and heard 6-7 individual SFz SUTs including mine too. I listened to them together thousands of hours over the years. BTW I laid my hands over new IO-XP but haven’t heard it yet.

Old IO-M and new IO-XP both have 1ohm DC resistance, so no change in terms of internal impedance. Old SFz SUT has 1ohm, 3ohm and 40ohm inputs new SFz SUT has 1.5ohm and 30ohm inputs. As a result 1ohm IO-XP cartridge is made for 1.5ohm SFz input.

Depending on quality, SUTs can be very flexible for internal impedance of cartridges but it’s better to connect a cartridge to a tap on SUT which is equal or higher than cartridge’s internal impedance.

IME for old Kondo SFz:
- 0.1-2ohm cartridges to 1ohm tap
- 1-10ohm cartridges to 3ohm tap
- 14-40ohm cartridges to 40ohm tap.
It’s possible to use most of the MC cartridges available right now with Kondo SFz.

 

[Corinthian]

Dear Corinthian,

You can write to Dave Slagle of Intact Audio and/or Emia, he’ll advise a suitable step-up ratio for your cartridge. That is exactly what I did and very happy since then. Had Dave’s step-up connected to a built-in phono amp then, simply lovely. Had recently purchased a Threshold phonostage, now Dave’s step-up is connected to Fet Ten/E, Ma Ma Mia.

Do remember to set your phonostage to mm.

Best regards

Thanks Kinn, that's an excellent idea. Thank you to everyone else for your advice and input too. I don't profess to have any in depth technical understanding and so I rely on recommendation backed up by personal listening experience to make audio choices. I find this discussion all very interesting.

I completely agree that the Ortofon ST-70 is very much an entry level SUT, and I'm not claiming that the Cadenza is top line either - these just happened to be available and were the basis for experimenting - even if I was unaware that I needed to change the jumpers for example!
I probably should see if I can borrow a better SUT, perhaps a Phasemation or similar and see where I go from there.

Before investing potentially many thousands in a specific SUT I am going to change my cartridge though. I have had 2 Cadenza Black's, so I'm clearly not very imaginative to date and I'm thinking of trying either a Hana Umami, or if I'm feeling extravagant, a Top Wing Blue Dragon or Red Sparrow as they all seem to get rave reviews. Once the next cartridge is sorted it might be time for me to really experiment with 'high end' SUTs.

P.S. I've also dipped a toe, very very briefly, into the Audio Science Review forums. Wow, that's certainly not the place for me having read a few of the posts.

 

[Kinn]

Hi Corinthian, I have the copper version of Dave Slagle SUT(Intact Audio). Why copper, because like you, new to SUT and so, went with the cheaper option. Love it so much, am planning for silver option next.

Eventually, if you’re into SUT, I believe you’ll have several SUT units for different cartridges. Fortunately, SUT does not take up much real estate.

 

[Don_Camillo]

Dave Slagle of Intact Audio is a very good address for high-quality transformers and a very nice guy with a lot of experience. Some of the most renowned manufacturers rely on his skills and products.

 

[Salectric]

Hi Corinthian, I have the copper version of Dave Slagle SUT(Intact Audio). Why copper, because like you, new to SUT and so, went with the cheaper option. Love it so much, am planning for silver option next.

Eventually, if you’re into SUT, I believe you’ll have several SUT units for different cartridges. Fortunately, SUT does not take up much real estate.

Don’t just assume silver is better. On two occasions I was able to compare Slagle’s copper and silver SUTs and each time I preferred the copper. I was quite surprised by this given the near-universal praise for Dave’s silver transformers. Also, I use Audio Note silver cables so I am certainly not opposed to silver wiring.

Your reactions may be different. I am just saying silver isn’t always better.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Thanks Kinn, that's an excellent idea. Thank you to everyone else for your advice and input too. I don't profess to have any in depth technical understanding and so I rely on recommendation backed up by personal listening experience to make audio choices. I find this discussion all very interesting.

I completely agree that the Ortofon ST-70 is very much an entry level SUT, and I'm not claiming that the Cadenza is top line either - these just happened to be available and were the basis for experimenting - even if I was unaware that I needed to change the jumpers for example!
I probably should see if I can borrow a better SUT, perhaps a Phasemation or similar and see where I go from there.

Before investing potentially many thousands in a specific SUT I am going to change my cartridge though. I have had 2 Cadenza Black's, so I'm clearly not very imaginative to date and I'm thinking of trying either a Hana Umami, or if I'm feeling extravagant, a Top Wing Blue Dragon or Red Sparrow as they all seem to get rave reviews. Once the next cartridge is sorted it might be time for me to really experiment with 'high end' SUTs.

P.S. I've also dipped a toe, very very briefly, into the Audio Science Review forums. Wow, that's certainly not the place for me having read a few of the posts.

there are excellent old step up transformers for less money. ok they are used and maybe not so nice housing anymore. technics sh 305 mc flexible and an excellent bandwidth. specs:

Type	Amorphous MC boost transformer
Transformer	Amorphous toroidal core
Recommended cartridge impedance	Pass (when using MM cartridge) Low : 3 ? Middle : 15 ? High : 30 ?
Frequency characteristic	3 Hz to 300 kHz 20 Hz to 100 kHz ± 0.2 dB
Total harmonic distortion factor	0.001% or Less (1 kHz)
Channel separation	90 dB or More (1 kHz)
Channel balance	0.2 dB or Less (1 kHz)
Shield type	With a permalloy double shield Outer case cast iron Copper-plated four layer shield
Recommended load impedance	47k ?
External dimensions	Width 60x Height 90x Depth 210 mm
Weight	4.5kg

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Mitch cotter type I for cartridges from 2-30 Ohm silver

Verion/Cotter Mk1 Moving Coil Step-up Transformer | eBay

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