Power cords - do they really make a difference, other than potentially reduce noise?

[RayDunzl]

What music is traveling through a power cord?

I unplugged mine to see.

Seems like ALL of the music was travelling through it. Even the picture on the TV is in there somehow.

This obviously deserves further investigation.

 

[stehno]

i unplugged mine to see.

Seems like all of the music was travelling through it. Even the picture on the tv is in there somehow.

This obviously deserves further investigation.

LOL

 

[stehno]

I unplugged mine to see.

Seems like ALL of the music was travelling through it. Even the picture on the TV is in there somehow.

This obviously deserves further investigation.

Maybe you should open a new thread: "Proof that power cables work" ???

Just sayin.....

 

[Kingsrule]

I'd like to share with you the results of a year plus effort to identify a power cord that I think performs remarkably well and is affordable.

But let me begin by saying that although I've been struggling with this quest for a very long time, the most recent and productive part to my journey began shortly after visiting the great Karmeli last year. David urged me to tear out some very high priced power cables and replace them with some of the cheapest PCs cables ever made. But don't be fooled. They weren't just any cables. Rather they were discovered by David after a very long quest. They are not made by a famous audio manufacturer, but by a huge industrial company in China. David loaned me a few pair. Don't pay attention to anything, he said, except the naturalness of the midrange. Because if you ain't got that, then whatever else the cable does makes it worthless in his opinion. And sure enough, from the minute I gradually substituted one, two and then three of his cables for mine, I was dumbfounded. What I could not see until that point, is how I went down a rabbit hole thinking my expensive cables were superior, when in fact they were not superior in the most basic of attributes, which was delivering a natural sounding midrange. Oh, they may have offered better this or that, but the bottom line was that I was kidding myself because I lost a key element to my system's overall musicality- the critical natural sounding midrange. Yup. David's insight was a real eye-opener for me. (This is what audiophile friends are for!! Friends do not let friends listen drunk!)

Fast forward. Since that time, I began a search for a no frills, inexpensive cable that might actually improve slightly on David's El-cheapo cables, particularly in the extremes since I honestly didn't think improving the midrange was easily accomplished. However, I did think my expensive PCs may have rendered the bass a tad better, so the search began. I'll cut to the chase. I've tried a lot of stuff (including the famous Pangea w Cardas wire). And I've done it in a very controlled, single variable series of experiments, always using the El-cheapos as a control. I'm now at the point that I can say I'm satisfied with the outcome of my listening experiments and have settled on one cable that I think performs beautifully for me. Its basically a variant of this: http://www.audioartcable.com/Articles.asp?ID=153.

This wonderful cable is NOT the top of the line cable from Audio Art, a small, custom manufacturer of interconnects and PCs that has been around for a long time and sells direct to the end-user. Their 1SE PC is nothing fancy and has no filters of any kind, but rather is a well made, well shielded cable made of copper. The key is NOT to order it with the Furutech F28 rhodium connectors but rather with the Gold connectors at both ends. Audio Arts sells a top of the line PC cable that frankly, I did not like as it is made from silver platted copper wire. So it is the more inexpensive copper PC, the 1SE with Furutech F28 gold plug set, that floats my boat. For about $500 bucks (ask for the "I'm nobody special" discount- you'll probably get one), its not only damn good, but as of yet, I have not found anything substantially better. Not only is the midrange gorgeous and natural sounding, but the extremes are also very good. Taken as a whole, there is nothing about it that calls attention to itself in any way. At least in my system. Of course YMMV, but for me, it's a compelling game, set, match. At least to the point that I am thankfully done for now and have no desire to look further or spend more money than 500 bucks for a PC. Oh, and here's the best part. When you place an order, you will deal with Rob Fritz, the owner, who not only replies promptly, but offers a money back guaranty! That's correct. Don't like it? Send it back. I tried a lot of Rob's cables and believe me, sent several back (interconnects as well) and it didn't phase him at all. But he really does have at least one gem in his stable, the 1SE PC with the F(28)G plug set. I would suggest starting your evaluation by trying one on your pre-amp, and the take it from there if you like it. I think you'll soon see why one has grown to six in my system.

Hi Marty

How long was the break-in period on the SE cables?

 

[Kingsrule]

AudioArt says 200 hours of playing time although this sounds more like a signal cable requirement, not a requirement for a pc

 

[DaveC]

Let's also remember this: the more filtering a power cord does, the less transients it can handle. One goes with the other. Filter means less bandwidth. Less bandwidth means a signal cannot jump from one value to another quickly. The universe will cease to exist if this rule is violated. .

That's not true wrt power cables. Conditioning IS filtering and there are conditioners that don't have an audible effect assuming there is no noise to filter. Power is 60 Hz, this doesn't change. Unless you travel to other countries, lol...

Now if you're talking signal cables than I'd agree, for example capacitance in interconnect cables is easily audible.

Marty, I agree with you on power cables in general, many/most of them do alter the tonal balance of the system, which is bad imo. But otoh, everything does to some degree, what sounds "natural" might depend somewhat on the system and personal preference. I'd welcome you to demo one of my power cables, for free of course... Shoot me a PM or email if interested. My PCs have never been beat in any comparison thus far.

 

[bonzo75]

Now if you're talking signal cables than I'd agree, for example capacitance in interconnect cables is easily audible.

What do you mean by audible, what would you expect to hear?

 

[DaveC]

What do you mean by audible, what would you expect to hear?

audible: can be heard. Capacitance in interconnect cables causes a dull sound.

 

[amirm]

That's not true wrt power cables. Conditioning IS filtering and there are conditioners that don't have an audible effect assuming there is no noise to filter. Power is 60 Hz, this doesn't change. Unless you travel to other countries, lol...

I didn't say anything about an audible effect. I was speaking of a fundamental principal in electronics. You can't filter high frequencies and expect your transient response to not get worse.

As to 60 Hz, you better not be filtering that or you would be filtering the power coming in!

 

[amirm]

audible: can be heard. Capacitance in interconnect cables causes a dull sound.

Should everyone be able to hear such a difference? What would it cost to put this to test as far as cost of the cables?

 

[BlueFox]

Amir, have you ever visited Shunyata and spoken with Calin Gabriel? He will answer your questions, and clear up your misunderstandings. They are a ferry boat ride across from Seattle.

 

[YashN]

Amir, have you ever visited Shunyata and spoken with Calin Gabriel?

Caelin is on the forum as well.

 

[DaveC]

I didn't say anything about an audible effect. I was speaking of a fundamental principal in electronics. You can't filter high frequencies and expect your transient response to not get worse.

As to 60 Hz, you better not be filtering that or you would be filtering the power coming in!

Should everyone be able to hear such a difference? What would it cost to put this to test as far as cost of the cables?

Power conditioners... well, I was going to explain this but I think you're playing dumb. It's obviously possible to filter higher frequency noise from 50-60 Hz AC without having any significant effect on transient response. Power cables are going to "filter" a lot less than conditioners, filter in quotes because a power cable really isn't a filter in any significant way so the RLC values of power cable are probably not responsible for any limitation of transients. Other factors are though, the cheap molded plugs are a prime culprit in limiting instantaneous current available. The quality of the contacts is one of the most important factors of a power cable, maybe the most important.

No, I don't think everyone has the same hearing or the same quality of system that would allow minor differences in cable capacitance to be audible because it effects the highest frequencies most. But if you're interested it's not hard to demonstrate to yourself. You could literally add a capacitor to the cable, or you could make 2 identical cables, say a simple twisted pair, and put a shield that is grounded on one or both ends on one of the cables. The shield will increase capacitance enough that you might be able to hear a difference. To many people the difference is easily audible and is described in almost exactly the same way by everyone who has experienced this.

 

[marty]

Let's also remember this: the more filtering a power cord does, the less transients it can handle. One goes with the other. Filter means less bandwidth. Less bandwidth means a signal cannot jump from one value to another quickly. The universe will cease to exist if this rule is violated. .

This is clearly one of the most controversial quotes on the forum. To begin, I understand the first part. However, I do not understand what is meant by "Less bandwidth means a signal cannot jump from one value to another quickly" and would like to understand what that means more precisely from a technical point of view. But let's go back to the first part, which to me is the most interesting observation. As we all know, some companies have set out to demonstrate that their cords, which include filters, do not indeed impede transients but actually facilitate them. There is even oscilloscope data to support their hypothesis. Thus they claim the filters they use are actually beneficial in this regard. So, which viewpoint is correct? IMHO, it appears they are indeed measuring something with their scope. But what that something is, and how that translates to sonic perception, I don't think I can say. Can anybody? From a purely subjective point of view, as I stated in post #169, I have come to appreciate that in a specific application, unfiltered power cords were sonically preferred to the filtered ones I have tried. Of course these observations can be brand and/or gear specific, (as well as ear and brain specific!). But I'm inclined to believe that Amir's premise that "the more filtering a power cord does, the less transients it can handle" makes some sense to me. As far as the universe ceasing to exist, I'm not too worried about that, no matter what happens at the Convention in Cleveland in 3 months.

 

[LL21]

Should everyone be able to hear such a difference? What would it cost to put this to test as far as cost of the cables?

What do you make of this article? The Minneapolis Heart Institute discovered that installing Shunyata Conditioners measurably lowered the noise floor of their heart diagnostic equipment to allow them to read and monitor heart activity with greater accuracy. The article says the Institute measured that their noise floor dropped from 0.05mv-0.25mv to an estimated 0.001mV-0.003mV. They also use the power cords as well...i cannot imagine they are using the power cords just for cool-factor, but they do not discuss measurements of power conditioner vs power cables.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/shu...ch_medical.htm

Given your technical background, does this translate well to your own thoughts on power cables from an audio perspective? Before we get to the question of can a human hear the difference, are you au fait with the concept that these products are in fact making a measureable difference in heart monitoring equipment...and it is therefore reasonable to believe the same would apply to other components into which these power products are plugged?

 

[marty]

What do you make of this article? The Minneapolis Heart Institute discovered that installing Shunyata Conditioners measurably lowered the noise floor of their heart diagnostic equipment to allow them to read and monitor heart activity with greater accuracy. The article says the Institute measured that their noise floor dropped from 0.05mv-0.25mv to an estimated 0.001mV-0.003mV. They also use the power cords as well...i cannot imagine they are using the power cords just for cool-factor, but they do not discuss measurements of power conditioner vs power cables.

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/shu...ch_medical.htm

Given your technical background, does this translate well to your own thoughts on power cables from an audio perspective? Before we get to the question of can a human hear the difference, are you au fait with the concept that these products are in fact making a measurable difference in heart monitoring equipment...and it is therefore reasonable to believe the same would apply to other components into which these power products are plugged?

A 1-2x log unit reduction in electrical noise using the specified power conditioner above is very easy to understand and is quite believable. Many years ago, I rigged up a very sensitive HPLC system in my lab where drugs were detected by the appearance of peaks which have to be compared to the background noise of the system. Anything that reduces background noise (i.e. electrical such as with noise conditioners or mechanical such as with vibration isolation) often improves the sensitivity because small peaks, which were not distinct in the presence of background peaks, now stand out against a background devoid of small peaks. In my case, I was able to detect drugs that were in the same order of improved sensitivity as that reported above (1-2 log units, or in pharmacologic terms, 1nM instead of 50nM) This is straight forward stuff and doesn't involve more complicated issues such as human perception by one of the senses when "noise" is reduced. Mechanical or electrical noise is pretty straight forward to see. Perceptual noise- totally different and much more complicated as you would expect,. What is the nature of the noise? Constant? Intermittent? Linear? Non-linear? What are those effects on a physiological system? Lab equipment noise is typically much easier to understand and modify in terms of performance goals in comparison to noise in human perception systems.

 

[LL21]

A 1-2x log unit reduction in electrical noise using the specified power conditioner above is very easy to understand and is quite believable. Many years ago, I rigged up a very sensitive HPLC system in my lab where drugs were detected by the appearance of peaks which have to be compared to the background noise of the system. Anything that reduces background noise (i.e. electrical such as with noise conditioners or mechanical such as with vibration isolation) often improves the sensitivity because small peaks, which were not distinct in the presence of background peaks, now stand out against a background devoid of small peaks. In my case, I was able to detect drugs that were in the same order of improved sensitivity as that reported above (1-2 log units, or in pharmacologic terms, 1nM instead of 50nM) This is straight forward stuff and doesn't involve more complicated issues such as human perception by one of the senses when "noise" is reduced. Mechanical or electrical noise is pretty straight forward to see. Perceptual noise- totally different and much more complicated as you would expect,. What is the nature of the noise? Constant? Intermittent? Linear? Non-linear? What are those effects on a physiological system? Lab equipment noise is typically much easier to understand and modify in terms of performance goals in comparison to noise in human perception systems.

Thanks, Marty. I suppose that my question is 3 parts:

1. Do our technical experts on this forum believe this story? (Personally, i would expect people do.)

2. Does this then mean it is reasonable to take away that such equipment also reduces noise floor on audio equipment?

3. If 2 above is YES, then the final question is can people hear the effect of such lowered noise floor?

My gut says yes to all 3 but i ask questions of the technical guys here.

 

[BlueFox]

Thanks, Marty. I suppose that my question is 3 parts:

1. Do our technical experts on this forum believe this story? (Personally, i would expect people do.)

2. Does this then mean it is reasonable to take away that such equipment also reduces noise floor on audio equipment?

3. If 2 above is YES, then the final question is can people hear the effect of such lowered noise floor?

My gut says yes to all 3 but i ask questions of the technical guys here.

From my personal experience with the Shunyata gear in an audio environment, the answer is yes to all three. Being an engineer and a past electronic technician, the fact Shunyata explains the science and engineering behind their products has been a big reason why I tried their gear. The fact that it works is why I am a big fan.

 

[MtnHam]

I suspect many audiophiles believe that "noise" on the AC line is something akin to hum or buzz. The reality is that dirty AC manifests itself in subtle degradation of the music, and is usually not even noticed. Deliver clean power to your gear with the use of SOTA noise reduction, such as Shunyata PC's, Hydra distribution gear and Typhons, and the improvements to the sound quality will jump out at you.

 

[treitz3]

I can agree to that Tom. Folks don't know what they have got (noise) until it's gone. Up until that point, they never knew they had any to begin with.

Tom