Power . How much do we need...

[KeithR]

Hello Keith

I think you misunderstand why you would want a system that is capable of such high SPL peaks. First off you are not tuning the system for 120dB peaks. All you are doing is providing enough power reserves to be able hit those peaks clean if the need arrises. Clean is the key. You want to be able to do this without the amps clipping. If they clip it's all for naught as you can hear the power compression and it doesn't sound natural.

The whole point is for the system to sound unrestrained and remain effortless at any reasonable SPL level. The only way to get there IMHO is to overdesign/overpower which is more in line with your statement that more power is better. It sure helps if you have high sensitivity speakers. My mains are 98db@ 1 meter so it's not that much of a stretch for me to get there.

The other issue is what part of the spectrum are those peaks in. I can hit 120Db peaks using my subwoofers in my HT. I typically don't go there and purposely listen below Reference Level to avoid issues with my hearing. Just becasue you have a system or design a system that is capable of ear damaging SPL's doesn't mean you don't understand the dangers and are not proactive to avoid them.

Rob

Rob- thanks for the response. I used to tune my HT for THX standards, that is what i meant---and it was way too loud (10dbs as i recall at least). 120dbs is too loud for peaks as we both seem to agree, even in HT.

I will take a db meter (on my ipad) and check my average listening levels this weekend---i encourage others to do the same. my bet is a lot lower spls are typically used.

 

[FrantzM]

Keith

I do understand SET. I like some things about SETs, not all (finding them more euphonic than I like) and would not consider SET with the speakers I currently favor.
At the risk of derailing my own thread, I find most speakers teribly inefficient. I have repeatedly stated here that there seems to be something special about high efficiency speakers. To me that is the next step in getting closer to the Real Thing. Most speakers are inefficient. In physics terms speakers arevery inefficient transducers...
Speakers of the kind you have are the exceptions rather than the norm ... The speakers you mentioned the Magico Q3 for example is in the low 90 's .. The brochure says 90 dB, the real value under real world conditions might even be lower and the minimum impedance does not favor SET (2.8 Ohms) .. To their credit they state at which frequency the sensitivity was measured and it's 1 Khz ... I would estimate the real efficiency of this speaker to be less much less .. So Yes, I want to see more efficient speakers and believe we will see more of these in the future .. In the here and now .. The vast majority of High End speakers are way under 95 dB yours are 6 dB more efficient. I also am repeating myself to say that we have gotten to the point where powerful amplifiers are to my ears as good or better than low powered ones So ... I am not sold on the low power and expense of SET.. They limit the choice of speakers. My philosophy is that Speakers are the main contributors (along with the Room) to what we hear from our system ... So Let's call it a diference of philosophy .. I am willing to change my position but need to be convinced by listening and data .. So far both support my current stance ...

 

[Steve williams]

Frantz ...do you buy amps that match well with your speakers or do you buy speakers that match well with your amps. IOW which comes first

No one here is advocating the use of an SET amp for anything but with high efficiency speakers. If my speakers weren't 95 Db efficient I would never have gone with an SET amp

 

[FrantzM]

Steve

I go with speakers first as stated in the last post .. I still prefer the Headroom of higher powered amps... It is not the SET topology that is my main concern it is the low power approach .. This may sound almost heretic and contradictory to my stated views here and on other forums but I have maitiained that according to several researcher (among them Earl Geddes whose works i respect), THD does not tell us much. For example it has been shown that under certain conditions we don't detect 50% distortions level ... Fifty percent! No Typo! ... I will come back on the references on that particular value .. When we also consider that , My Flame suit is on, that mp3 at 320 Kb/s cuts off 89% percent of the signal and manage to be still recognizable as music down to be sometimes indistinguishable from CD by some tin-eared people , I can't believe much in THD.. A parameter where SET don't seem to shine...
SETs do a lot of interesting things in my view their midrange and "liquidity" is sublime but I find in many of these a tendency toward euphony and a reduced output in the frequency extreme and of course their usual low power .. My tastes have also shifted toward SS anyway so .... It is not a SET issue for me it is that of the low power amps and the contention that they are inherently superior to amplifiers of higher wattage ... The data and my ears don't support that view ...

 

[Ron Party]

Rob- thanks for the response. I used to tune my HT for THX standards, that is what i meant---and it was way too loud (10dbs as i recall at least). 120dbs is too loud for peaks as we both seem to agree, even in HT.

I will take a db meter (on my ipad) and check my average listening levels this weekend---i encourage others to do the same. my bet is a lot lower spls are typically used.

I don't think 120dB for peaks is too loud. And, I regularly use an SPL meter when listening to music and watching movies. Average level for me is in the 80s.

I'd also like to see data to support your contention that the largest trend in audio is going with low powered tubes.

 

[KeithR]

I don't think 120dB for peaks is too loud. And, I regularly use an SPL meter when listening to music and watching movies. Average level for me is in the 80s.

I'd also like to see data to support your contention that the largest trend in audio is going with low powered tubes.

We can agree to disagree on peaks then.

My contention is speakers are getting more efficient (and therefore more compatible with low power tubes) Speaker companies seem to be getting more and more efficient as the years go by. I think Wilson started with the original Sophia to go more efficient--famously known for sounding good on 30 watts. Most of my audiophile friends are getting more efficient stuff. Magico claims 90dbs for the Q3 (which will measure less i bet). You used to have to buy horns to get any efficiency in the 90s.

More of the magazines are including high efficiency speakers and lower power amp reviews. Sites like Dagogo and positive-feedback have much more in this arena than 5 years ago. Dick Olsher is now at TAS doing it for mainstream reviews.

Shops like Tone Imports and Pitch Perfect Audio are doing great business in this arena (look at PPA's trade-in list some time as well). Add in a bunch of internet brands ala Zu, Omega, etc. Add in the Red Wine Audios of the world as well. How about Nelson Pass releasing 30 watt amps under the Pass brand.

Heck, audiophiles like our own Steve Williams and Mike Lavigne now have SETs. The world is changing imo. Add me in the mix too---i just sold 600 watt monos for 26 watt versions. Let's hope it was the right move

KeithR

 

[amirm]

Backing Frantz's point on speaker efficiency, we had an amplifier that had fair amount of hiss driving our "100db" efficient speakers. We took the amp and put it on speakers with 86db of sensitivity. You know what happened? Not much! Nearly the same hiss was there.

I think one has to be very careful with this marketing spec. It does not always translate to what companies say it is.

 

[Steve williams]

Heck, audiophiles like our own Steve Williams and Mike Lavigne now have SETs. The world is changing imo. Add me in the mix too---i just sold 600 watt monos for 26 watt versions. Let's hope it was the right move

I have had my SET amps (initially 18 wpc and now 32 wpc) for the past 7 years and won't ever go back to push-pull or SS as long as I own my very efficient speakers

 

[mauidan]

I don't think 120dB for peaks is too loud. And, I regularly use an SPL meter when listening to music and watching movies. Average level for me is in the 80s.

I'd also like to see data to support your contention that the largest trend in audio is going with low powered tubes.

Don't know if it's the start of trend, but Stereophile did give its 2011 Product of the Year Award to the Voxativ Ampeggio speakers, which have a measured sensitivity of 98dB.

Have you ever been to Pitch Perfect Audio? They've got an event coming up:

Sunday, January 15, 5–9pm and Monday, January 16, 6–9pm: As a way to recuperate from the madness of the Consumer Electronics Show and with a hat tip to Devore Fidelity's popular Monkeyhaus listening parties, Pitch Perfect Audio (300 Brannan Street, Suite 209, San Francisco) will host their first “Greenhaus” events.

Jonathan Halpern of Tone Imports, John DeVore of DeVore Fidelity, and Anthony Abbate of Box Furniture Co. will be on hand to present their gear, play records, answer questions, and pour drinks.

On Sunday, a range of DeVore Fidelity loudspeakers, including the Orangutan O/96 (pictured below), will be partnered with Well Tempered turntables, EMT cartridges, AcousticPlan digital components, and amplification from LM Audio, Leben, and Shindo. On Monday, LM Audio’s 755 field-coil loudspeakers will be highlighted.

 

[MylesBAstor]

These are speakers to hear! I heard them for the first time at CES last year and was mightily impressed. In fact, thought there would be no soundstage height and was shown to be wrong!

 

[RogerD]

We can agree to disagree on peaks then.

My contention is speakers are getting more efficient (and therefore more compatible with low power tubes) Speaker companies seem to be getting more and more efficient as the years go by. I think Wilson started with the original Sophia to go more efficient--famously known for sounding good on 30 watts. Most of my audiophile friends are getting more efficient stuff. Magico claims 90dbs for the Q3 (which will measure less i bet). You used to have to buy horns to get any efficiency in the 90s.

More of the magazines are including high efficiency speakers and lower power amp reviews. Sites like Dagogo and positive-feedback have much more in this arena than 5 years ago. Dick Olsher is now at TAS doing it for mainstream reviews.

Shops like Tone Imports and Pitch Perfect Audio are doing great business in this arena (look at PPA's trade-in list some time as well). Add in a bunch of internet brands ala Zu, Omega, etc. Add in the Red Wine Audios of the world as well. How about Nelson Pass releasing 30 watt amps under the Pass brand.

Heck, audiophiles like our own Steve Williams and Mike Lavigne now have SETs. The world is changing imo. Add me in the mix too---i just sold 600 watt monos for 26 watt versions. Let's hope it was the right move

KeithR

High efficiency speakers have been around for ages. My particular speakers are 96db and I have used both SS mono blocks and 300B based tube amps. I don't think anybody would refute there are trade offs between low and high power systems. In my case it boils down to what type of music I listen to most and what I feel gives me the most realistic sound.

 

[fas42]

Backing Frantz's point on speaker efficiency, we had an amplifier that had fair amount of hiss driving our "100db" efficient speakers. We took the amp and put it on speakers with 86db of sensitivity. You know what happened? Not much! Nearly the same hiss was there.

I think one has to be very careful with this marketing spec. It does not always translate to what companies say it is.

A big part of the equation is that the ear/brain is excellent at compensating for actual, sound level meter readings; your mind does a lot of automatic volume adjustment, and this depends a great deal on the quality of the sound. If there is something wrong with the sound, like hiss, your brain winds up the internal volume control, and the "defect" screams at you!

Likewise, when the quality of sound varies over a period of time, the apparent volume will change markedly: Roger will be upset with me saying this , but the actual SPL does not vary one bit while this is happening but your mind registers the impact of it as the system getting louder or softer: psychoacoustics, whether you like it or not, figures very prominently in the listening experience.

With regard to efficient speakers, they have the "magic" for one simple reason: they allow virtually all class AB amps to operate in the class A region of behaviour essentially all the time. It's as straighforward as that ...

Frank

 

[Whatmore]

A big part of the equation is that the ear/brain is excellent at compensating for actual, sound level meter readings; your mind does a lot of automatic volume adjustment, and this depends a great deal on the quality of the sound. If there is something wrong with the sound, like hiss, your brain winds up the internal volume control, and the "defect" screams at you!

Likewise, when the quality of sound varies over a period of time, the apparent volume will change markedly: Roger will be upset with me saying this , but the actual SPL does not vary one bit while this is happening but your mind registers the impact of it as the system getting louder or softer: psychoacoustics, whether you like it or not, figures very prominently in the listening experience.

With regard to efficient speakers, they have the "magic" for one simple reason: they allow virtually all class AB amps to operate in the class A region of behaviour essentially all the time. It's as straighforward as that ...

Frank

Interesting point Frank. When I first switched from my 50w amp to my 500w amp I was completely confused. The amp with 10x more power didn't seem to go as loud as the other one. Upon checking SPL I realised that I had actually turned the 500w amp louder.
How could it be that at a higher SPL, my system sounded quieter than before. The answer, I think, lies in the lack of clipping. My old amp seemed too loud because it was clipping

 

[amirm]

A big part of the equation is that the ear/brain is excellent at compensating for actual, sound level meter readings; your mind does a lot of automatic volume adjustment, and this depends a great deal on the quality of the sound. If there is something wrong with the sound, like hiss, your brain winds up the internal volume control, and the "defect" screams at you!
Frank

Between knowing that sensitivity is not measured at all frequencies and the same between manufacturers, and your explanation, I will stick with mine . But if you have some research paper explaining this internal volume control I will read it and comment.

 

[FrantzM]

Between knowing that sensitivity is not measured at all frequencies and the same between manufacturers, and your explanation, I will stick with mine . But if you have some research paper explaining this internal volume control I will read it and comment.

So will I ...

 

[microstrip]

Between knowing that sensitivity is not measured at all frequencies and the same between manufacturers, and your explanation, I will stick with mine . But if you have some research paper explaining this internal volume control I will read it and comment.

IMHO, you are both right and addressing different things. The number usually quoted for sensitivity can not be used in the usual listening conditions, as it was measured in anechoic conditions and frequency weighted.

But our perception of loudness is strongly affected by sound quality and our enjoyment, and surely the system behind the loudspeaker can affect it. Anyone owning electronics with a large warmup period - such as a the Krell KSA250 - knows that when listening cold at live sound levels most times the sound seems too loud, and the tendency is to decrease volume but listening at the same electrical level when the system is hot does not suggest such high levels - only after the neighbors complain you notice it.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

A big part of the equation is that the ear/brain is excellent at compensating for actual, sound level meter readings; your mind does a lot of automatic volume adjustment, and this depends a great deal on the quality of the sound. If there is something wrong with the sound, like hiss, your brain winds up the internal volume control, and the "defect" screams at you!

Likewise, when the quality of sound varies over a period of time, the apparent volume will change markedly: Roger will be upset with me saying this , but the actual SPL does not vary one bit while this is happening but your mind registers the impact of it as the system getting louder or softer: psychoacoustics, whether you like it or not, figures very prominently in the listening experience.

With regard to efficient speakers, they have the "magic" for one simple reason: they allow virtually all class AB amps to operate in the class A region of behaviour essentially all the time. It's as straighforward as that ...

Frank

Frank, it seems that you've made quite a study of audio perception, psychoacoustics and ear/brain interaction. I find the subject very interesting myself. Could you refer me to a source, for example, that talks about apparent volume changing with the quality of sound when the actual sound levels didn't change at all? Specifically, can you refer me to study in which listeners perceived sound with hiss as much "louder" than clean sound? I'm up for a little reading.

Tim

 

[mep]

Somewhere in this world there is an old man tucked away in an asylum who has access to the internet and he takes great delight in writing things that are pure nonsense and passing them off as psychobabble science. He knows damn well the laws of physics exist, but his shtick is trying to convince others that the laws of physics don’t really apply to audio.

That old man is tucked away right next to another old man whose shtick is pretending to be a 21 year old woman looking for love and having lonely guys fawning over “her.” It’s a toss up to which old man is laughing the hardest at their antics.

 

[FrantzM]

<snip>
But our perception of loudness is strongly affected by sound quality and our enjoyment, and surely the system behind the loudspeaker can affect it. Anyone owning electronics with a large warmup period - such as a the Krell KSA250 - knows that when listening cold at live sound levels most times the sound seems too loud, and the tendency is to decrease volume but listening at the same electrical level when the system is hot does not suggest such high levels - only after the neighbors complain you notice it.

Care to explain this a bit ? Not sure I understand ...

 

[MylesBAstor]

Steve

I go with speakers first as stated in the last post .. I still prefer the Headroom of higher powered amps... It is not the SET topology that is my main concern it is the low power approach .. This may sound almost heretic and contradictory to my stated views here and on other forums but I have maitiained that according to several researcher (among them Earl Geddes whose works i respect), THD does not tell us much. For example it has been shown that under certain conditions we don't detect 50% distortions level ... Fifty percent! No Typo! ... I will come back on the references on that particular value .. When we also consider that , My Flame suit is on, that mp3 at 320 Kb/s cuts off 89% percent of the signal and manage to be still recognizable as music down to be sometimes indistinguishable from CD by some tin-eared people , I can't believe much in THD.. A parameter where SET don't seem to shine...
SETs do a lot of interesting things in my view their midrange and "liquidity" is sublime but I find in many of these a tendency toward euphony and a reduced output in the frequency extreme and of course their usual low power .. My tastes have also shifted toward SS anyway so .... It is not a SET issue for me it is that of the low power amps and the contention that they are inherently superior to amplifiers of higher wattage ... The data and my ears don't support that view ...

Not to defend SET amplifiers but I think that your description is more appropriate for the early generation SETs. While I'm still not a fan, the newer designs are far better eg. better frequency extremes and lower distortion levels.