Quad dsd....on the Golden Gate

[microstrip]

(...) We have an upcoming recording session with a quartet from the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. In this instance, our first, we are recording all three high resolution media simultaneously, directly to analog tape using the SonoruS ATR12, which is state of the art, directly to 256fs (Quad) DSD using Merging Technologies and Pyramix, and high resolution PCM for the eventual creation of a CD etc. (...)
Bob Attiyeh
Yarlung Records
www.yarlungrecords.com

Are you referring to the ATR 10 or is it a new Sonorus machine?

 

[bmoura]

We have an upcoming recording session with a quartet from the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. In this instance, our first, we are recording all three high resolution media simultaneously, directly to analog tape using the SonoruS ATR12, which is state of the art, directly to 256fs (Quad) DSD using Merging Technologies and Pyramix, and high resolution PCM for the eventual creation of a CD etc. I'm nervous about so many elements in parallel, but I'm feeling optimistic. I'm doing the mic setup and producing. My assistant producer Jacob Horowitz will be handling our analog tape and DSD, Tom Caulfield is coming from Boston with a separate surround sound rig (also to DSD), and Arian Jansen is driving in with equipment to make a surround sound Holographic Imaging version (resulting in surround sound from two speakers). As I said, this is a lot going on for us, purist label that we are, but we'll do our best. Fingers crossed! We are technically already full for the live concert recording session, but here is the invitation anyway: goo.gl/gV0A4V

Bob Attiyeh
Yarlung Records
www.yarlungrecords.com

Very interesting!

You mentioned binaural recording. There are a few Binaural DSD recordings at Native DSD. My favorite with headphones is Misa Corolla on the Cobra Records label.
Definitely worth a listen.

I'll keep an eye out for the upcoming Quartet project recordings in DSD.

 

[wisnon]

Brian, I think you mean Misa Criolla (Creole Mass).

For me, no one beats Mercedes Sosa with that song.

 

[Bruce B]

What is the DSD256fs ADC you are using? Is it the same you used for the Wilson transfers?

I'm using the Merging Horus for DSD256fs. The Wilson recordings were done with the Meitner ADC8 IV, which they preferred.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I'm using the Merging Horus for DSD256fs. The Wilson recordings were done with the Meitner ADC8 IV, which they preferred.

Bruce - can I ask a question: how good is the Tascam 3000 for analogue to DSD recording? I am thinking of getting one as it is good value - is it destroyed by the Horus?

 

[amirm]

Bruce - can I ask a question: how good is the Tascam 3000 for analogue to DSD recording? I am thinking of getting one as it is good value - is it destroyed by the Horus?

I too have looked the Tascam but for PCM recording so would appreciate feedback there just the same .

 

[Blizzard]

I'm using the Merging Horus for DSD256fs. The Wilson recordings were done with the Meitner ADC8 IV, which they preferred.

Hi Bruce,


Did you have a chance to compare the Horus with the DA8/P with the NADAC?

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce - can I ask a question: how good is the Tascam 3000 for analogue to DSD recording? I am thinking of getting one as it is good value - is it destroyed by the Horus?

I have a Tascam and it isn't embarrassed by the Horus. It's really closer than many might think. It's a steal at <$1k

Hi Bruce,

Did you have a chance to compare the Horus with the DA8/P with the NADAC?

No, I haven't tried them side by side, but I have listened to the NADAC on several occasions and it retains the same sound as my Horus.

 

[Blizzard]

No, I haven't tried them side by side, but I have listened to the NADAC on several occasions and it retains the same sound as my Horus.

The Hapi is a pretty good deal at $4200 with the DA8P module then. The ability to add the SOTA ADC board is sure a bonus as well. However it would be nice to have the ability to parallel the 8 channels into 2 for best performance. But I guess they have to have some perks to spending close to triple the price on the NADAC.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike, I appreciate your analysis and thoughts on the various media. We are indeed in a brave new world (lower case, yes) of options for high resolution audio. Analog has never been as good as it is right now, and neither has digital. I think the most interesting tests are those made between DSD and vinyl made from the identical tape source. Otherwise, as you hint above, one is dealing with a generation issue. Yarlung has a few examples where one can compare 45 rpm vinyl (we cut the lacquers with Bernie Grundman) and DSD (made with Merging Technologies equipment and software) from the same tape. We released an album with Smoke & Mirrors percussion ensemble in September that came out very well in vinyl. I confess that Bernie and I did cut those lacquers 4 times before we were satisfied with the results! (One of those recuts was not the cutting's fault, as we pressed 33 instead of 45). Some of these same tracks are available in Quad DSD on NativeDSD.com. We're very pleased with both versions, and I must say that they are different.


We have an upcoming recording session with a quartet from the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. In this instance, our first, we are recording all three high resolution media simultaneously, directly to analog tape using the SonoruS ATR12, which is state of the art, directly to 256fs (Quad) DSD using Merging Technologies and Pyramix, and high resolution PCM for the eventual creation of a CD etc. I'm nervous about so many elements in parallel, but I'm feeling optimistic. I'm doing the mic setup and producing. My assistant producer Jacob Horowitz will be handling our analog tape and DSD, Tom Caulfield is coming from Boston with a separate surround sound rig (also to DSD), and Arian Jansen is driving in with equipment to make a surround sound Holographic Imaging version (resulting in surround sound from two speakers). As I said, this is a lot going on for us, purist label that we are, but we'll do our best. Fingers crossed! We are technically already full for the live concert recording session, but here is the invitation anyway: goo.gl/gV0A4V

Bob Attiyeh
Yarlung Records
www.yarlungrecords.com

Bob, I'm intrigued as to what you considered the differences in sound btwn the 45rpm vinyl and dsd versions of the Smoke And Mirrors was. Can you share?

 

[Yarlung Records]

Are you referring to the ATR 10 or is it a new Sonorus machine?

Greetings Microstrip. Arian designed and built a new recorder for Yarlung Records. It is called the ATR12, and it is a two component unit. The transport looks like the ATR10 you know, and there is an additional box that has the record circuitry in it. Beautiful units, both of them. The Recording circuitry chassis has an umbilical cord attaching it to the transport. As with the original ATR10, the record circuitry is all vacuum tube.

You will see two of these units in action if you can join us on November 3rd. We're using the Yarlung ATR12 for our two track analog capture, and Arian is using his ATR12 for a Holographic Imaging version of the recordings. We're very much looking forward to both versions!

So far there are only two ATR12s that exist, but Arian will build more by request. http://www.sonorusaudio.com/

Thanks for asking.

 

[Yarlung Records]

Bob, I'm intrigued as to what you considered the differences in sound btwn the 45rpm vinyl and dsd versions of the Smoke And Mirrors was. Can you share?

Greetings Spirit of Music. What a great name. And your alias makes it easier to answer your question, or try to. First, a disclaimer. Our team at Yarlung Records is format agnostic. In my view one can make excellent recordings with the right components carefully used whether one is recording high res PCM, 256fs DSD, or analog tape. The differences between the formats is subtle and depends a little on your playback system which one will be "the best" for you and for every listener. So I need to answer your question, unfortunately, with a non answer.

DSD is in its infancy. Analog playback from vinyl and from tape is mature. What this means is that we are listening to DSD at the very beginnings of the consumer use of the format, and we are listening to vinyl and analog tape at its pinnacle. For my phonostage I use either a Manley Steelhead or the phonostage built into the Messenger preamp by Elliot Midwood. Either are as fine as any phonostage designed in the world. When I listen to DSD I am listening to the Merging Hapi through Pyramix, or to the now legendary exaSound DAC. Merging and exaSound are superb. They are also at the start of a hopefully long trajectory in what will be the evolution of DSD playback. We should revisit this conversation in five years and again in ten years.

What I can say unequivocally, is that I like analog, DSD and PCM playback. The differences between the three are audible but that vary with the equipment. The differences between microphone cables, or especially microphone placement, is much greater.

You are in the UK, yes? Select Music is Yarlung's distributor in the UK and they do stock our vinyl. It should be relatively easy to find in stores and online in the UK. Would you be willing to listen to both and give us your opinion? If you have difficulty ordering Smoke & Mirrors in 45rpm format, you can also order directly from the Yarlung website which is www.yarlungrecords.com

I am not deliberately trying to turn my answer into a sales pitch, so for that I apologize. I would love you to hear both DSD and the vinyl however. I look forward to your thoughts.

Best wishes,

Bob

 

[amirm]

Bob, what is the post processing for making the LP from a tape? Is it straight transfer or other steps involved (from audio processing point of view, not production).

 

[Yarlung Records]

Bob, what is the post processing for making the LP from a tape? Is it straight transfer or other steps involved (from audio processing point of view, not production).

Greetings amirm. We have been fortunate to work with two vinyl mastering engineers who understand and support our rather old-fashioned and stubbornly purist approach at Yarlung. Doug Sax cut our first two lacquers and we have worked with Bernie Grundman on all the albums since. Because we are working with only two channels and don't use or need a mixer, we cut the lacquers directly from the tape, bypassing the board at Bernie Grundman Mastering, as we did at The Mastering Lab with Doug as well. So there is no audio processing going on. This makes our initial work during the recording sessions much more difficult and exacting, but the extra effort is worth it in the eventual sound.

 

[amirm]

Thanks Bob. Not knowing much about LP productions, I always assumed some mastering went on to tame the peak excursions and such. What you are saying that this can be managed, albeit with difficulty, if the source is tape?

 

[Yarlung Records]

Thanks Bob. Not knowing much about LP productions, I always assumed some mastering went on to tame the peak excursions and such. What you are saying that this can be managed, albeit with difficulty, if the source is tape?

Dear Amirm,

Tape per se does not eliminate the need for mastering and mixing when cutting a lacquer. If one were to cut an LP from a digital source, I guess the challenges would be similar to cutting as we do from the tape itself. Natural tape compression may help with this a little bit, but we don't push our tape so hard that we run into a lot of tape compression. I prefer it to be very clean than for it to be very loud. I will admit that we cut the lacquers for Smoke & Mirrors four times before Bernie and I were satisfied with the results on the test pressings. Percussion (with all the transients) is difficult to fit neatly into vinyl grooves! But we did it and I'm very happy with our results.

Most engineers will "mix" at the mastering studio when they are cutting the lacquers. In our case we prefer to "mix" on stage in the concert halls with the musicians, moving them around in the sound stage instead of moving them around electronically after the fact. In my view, the less tampering with the sound after it is recorded the better.

As long as the musicians can see and hear each other well during the recording, they are usually intrigued by the process and happy to cooperate with us.

 

[amirm]

Sounds good, pun intended . Is there a tape and PCM version you recommend for me to try out from your recordings?

 

[Yarlung Records]

Sounds good, pun intended . Is there a tape and PCM version you recommend for me to try out from your recordings?

I love your spirit. Everyone seems to be rather excited about the Smoke & Mirrors album. Another, coming out on vinyl at the end of the month is Janaki String Trio (also a Bernie Grundman 45) and also on tape. Tracks from this title will also be available on all of the formats, and are available on all formats except vinyl now.

The tapes and vinyl releases do not coincide completely, track for track. We can only fit 32 minutes or so on a tape, of course, so we have made different track offerings in the various media.

If you want to compare ALL of the formats right now, the percussion piece we commissioned from Diego Schissi for Smoke & Mirrors is available on all of them, PCM, DSD, analog tape and vinyl. The track title is Juego de Relojes.

One can order just that one track in DSD here: https://yarlungrecords.nativedsd.com/albums/smoke-mirrors-vanish

The album in high res PCM is here: http://www.hdtracks.com/smoke-mirrors-vanish

Vinyl is here: http://yarlungrecords.com/180.html (the vinyl has a different cover, but has the same piece)
(also on Amazon if you have Prime: http://smile.amazon.com/Smoke-Mirro...=8-2-fkmr1&keywords=smoke+&+Mirrors+vanish+lp)

and tape is here: http://yarlungrecords.com/analog.html

One can of course also hear this same music on the CD and from iTunes if you want something tiny and portable.

Thank you! I look forward to your thoughts.

Bob

 

[spiritofmusic]

Greetings Spirit of Music. What a great name. And your alias makes it easier to answer your question, or try to. First, a disclaimer. Our team at Yarlung Records is format agnostic. In my view one can make excellent recordings with the right components carefully used whether one is recording high res PCM, 256fs DSD, or analog tape. The differences between the formats is subtle and depends a little on your playback system which one will be "the best" for you and for every listener. So I need to answer your question, unfortunately, with a non answer.

DSD is in its infancy. Analog playback from vinyl and from tape is mature. What this means is that we are listening to DSD at the very beginnings of the consumer use of the format, and we are listening to vinyl and analog tape at its pinnacle. For my phonostage I use either a Manley Steelhead or the phonostage built into the Messenger preamp by Elliot Midwood. Either are as fine as any phonostage designed in the world. When I listen to DSD I am listening to the Merging Hapi through Pyramix, or to the now legendary exaSound DAC. Merging and exaSound are superb. They are also at the start of a hopefully long trajectory in what will be the evolution of DSD playback. We should revisit this conversation in five years and again in ten years.

What I can say unequivocally, is that I like analog, DSD and PCM playback. The differences between the three are audible but that vary with the equipment. The differences between microphone cables, or especially microphone placement, is much greater.

You are in the UK, yes? Select Music is Yarlung's distributor in the UK and they do stock our vinyl. It should be relatively easy to find in stores and online in the UK. Would you be willing to listen to both and give us your opinion? If you have difficulty ordering Smoke & Mirrors in 45rpm format, you can also order directly from the Yarlung website which is www.yarlungrecords.com

I am not deliberately trying to turn my answer into a sales pitch, so for that I apologize. I would love you to hear both DSD and the vinyl however. I look forward to your thoughts.

Best wishes,

Bob

Bob, that was a very considered answer. My moniker is a bastardisation of the Rush song "Spirit Of Radio" (cue everyone to run off!). But I'm no closer to knowing the answer to my q. LOL.
You may be aware that D. Robinson of PF has just reviewed the Merging Technologies Nadac, and proudly declares he can hear NO difference between quad dsd thru it and simple mic feed/master quality/15ips tape. None at all.
If that really is true, esp from an unabashed SS dsd dac, then the early development of dsd is already beyond anyones dreams.
Me? As an analog diehard, that's going to require a LOT of convincing me !
The issue why I ask is that I have a tentative interest in getting into r2r tape and dsd. I will freely admit the lack of material esp on tape is a major impediment (hard to justify to my Significant Other the spending of $24k on a top of the line UHA R2R if all I can find that I really want is Rollins Saxophone Colossus, and a handful of other titles).
And as a guy who is almost fetishistically wedded to physical media incl lp and even the lowly 5" cd, and has resisted computer formats, the move to dsd is a major jump into a very deep pool. And again, choice remains an issue, although much better than tape.

 

[Yarlung Records]

Dear "Spirit," I'm going to call you in London for a longer answer. More than I can type right now as we prepare for our Segerstrom Center recording session. There is something wonderful about physical media, I agree.