Reference tapemachine

[andromedaaudio]

This is from a vid of seblington , a collector / restaurator from england :

Built in 1960, told to be the best valve reel to reel ever made, it is said that Willi Studer saw one of the Ampex machines (probably an Ampex 300 or 350), he was so impressed with the recorder he set out to build a better machine. The C37 by far blows away the Ampex and any reel to reel of its time for build quality, though I have not had an Ampex 300 or 350 to listen to I could not personally say which really does sound better.

The recorder was a stereo version of the famous J37 which was used in the beetles recordings, the C37 was the first stereo professional reel to reel to come from Studer and it also marks the co-operation with EMT Wilhelm Franz and Studer, the recorder boasts a recording frequency of 20Hz to 17KHz +-2db on 7.1/2 or 15 ips, this one records 20KHz on 15ips with +-2dB though a world famous designer Tim de Paravicini can modify these machines to record 20Hz to 35LHz +-1dB with a S/N of 90dB! This is beyond CD quality as 90dB noise is not detectable and CD's frequency output is 20KHz (Half the digitized sample rate).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y0jERp9dJg


and a paravicini modded one 1/2 inch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mDHXH1PFRk

 

[andromedaaudio]

Still no attempt to develop something revolutionary with todays technology , blabla....high end audio
Whats up with this boring high end audio industry high $$$ cables , dacs and whatever but no one seems to look for big steps ahead, regarding music /sound reproduction

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

why invent the wheel again when there s lots of Studers around and Nagra T ?

 

[Bruce B]

why invent the wheel again when there s lots of Studers around and Nagra T ?

Don't forget all the ATR-100/102 machines out there!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

if you ever get a chance to see a Studer A-820 with it's top plates off, you will understand why there is no attempt to build a new 'better' Master Recorder. the frame is a massive cast honeycomb aluminum thing that sets the bar very, very, high. when the mechanicals are mounted to that beast of a frame there is a solidity to the performance that is awesome. it's designed in such a way to not need any cooling fan even as a studio workhorse.

it was $25k to $35k retail in the late 70's to early 80's. I wonder what one might cost to build now?

the Ampex ATR-102 series and Studer A-80 are not far behind in terms of heroic design.

so when that challenge of a 'better' master recorder is contemplated the urge quickly passes. my guess is that even with technology advances it might be a $150k-$200k product to really go further. it will never happen.

btw; Nagra's were never studio work horses. not that they are not amazing machines. I owned a pristine 'T' and '4S' for a time; they are works of mechanical art. 'tape porn' for sure.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Don't forget all the ATR-100/102 machines out there!

true but it wasn meant as a complete list
you also have the Lyrecs and the Sony 5003.....
best
Leif

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

if you ever get a chance to see a Studer A-820 with it's top plates off, you will understand why there is no attempt to build a new 'better' Master Recorder. the frame is a massive cast honeycomb aluminum thing that sets the bar very, very, high. when the mechanicals are mounted to that beast of a frame there is a solidity to the performance that is awesome. it's designed in such a way to not need any cooling fan even as a studio workhorse.

it was $25k to $35k retail in the late 70's to early 80's. I wonder what one might cost to build now?

the Ampex ATR-102 series and Studer A-80 are not far behind in terms of heroic design.

so when that challenge of a 'better' master recorder is contemplated the urge quickly passes. my guess is that even with technology advances it might be a $150k-$200k product to really go further. it will never happen.

btw; Nagra's were never studio work horses. not that they are not amazing machines. I owned a pristine 'T' and '4S' for a time; they are works of mechanical art. 'tape porn' for sure.

true about the mechanical side, but the audio section in the 820s is the same as in A810 and the psu s are switchmode, so in my opinion the A820 is probably the worlds best drive.....
best
Leif

 

[Mike Lavigne]

true about the mechanical side, but the audio section in the 820s are the same as in A810 and the psu s are switchmode, so in my opinion the A820 is a probably the worlds best drive.....
best
Leif

agree.....I use the King Cello tape repro for both my A-820's. I would say that my 1/2" A-820 with the trafoless card output is quite fine sounding, and the XLR input on my new dart pre is much better sounding than the previous dart pre. so I would be quite happy direct out.....but the KC is still a bit better.

 

[jdza]

it is said that Willi Studer saw one of the Ampex machines (probably an Ampex 300 or 350), he was so impressed with the recorder he set out to build a better machine.

It is also said that Ampex saw the C37 and then brought out the MR70 ,that Studer was so impressed he brought out the A80 in response, That Ampex was then so impressed they brought out the ATR 100 series, that so impressed Studer that he brought out the A 820 that so impressed Ampex that they gave up on audio magnetic tape altogether.

That is a lot of "it is saids" that may or may not be true

 

[Ki Choi]

it is said that Willi Studer saw one of the Ampex machines (probably an Ampex 300 or 350), he was so impressed with the recorder he set out to build a better machine.

It is also said that Ampex saw the C37 and then brought out the MR70 ,that Studer was so impressed he brought out the A80 in response, That Ampex was then so impressed they brought out the ATR 100 series, that so impressed Studer that he brought out the A 820 that so impressed Ampex that they gave up on audio magnetic tape altogether.

That is a lot of "it is saids" that may or may not be true

I still liked the story.

 

[Ki Choi]

One of the main problems with all pro master recorder repro section (in perspectives of "audiophiles" who would even remove output signal caps in quest for pure sound even at the risk of sending DC to downstream potentially blowing up their amps and speakers) is repro amp and line output amp sections are designed to be flexible and comparable to the rest of the studio gear.

Thus if one takes time to disable and remove flexibility and comparability in output section in tapehead preamp, repro amp, and line amp from a typical master recorder even the Studer A80RC, it would get close to what the audiophiles would demand.

So far, I went a step further with one of the A820s by removing all record related heads (erase and record), repositioned repro head in record head spot, removed tape head preamp and wired directly to the headblock DB connector, removed original Studer head DB connector from the chassis, installed a new connector with fully balanced wiring in the chassis then sent the wires to a pair of XLR direct head out connectors. All audio cards were removed. The switching power supply Leif talked about is only supplying power to the transport.

It's a pure tape transport feeding signal to tubed Manley tapehead preamp or SS Cello Audio Suite. But the madness will continue and the headblock will make a trip to JRF soon for Ampex MR70 repro head installation to mate with a pair of rebuilt MR-70 tubed electronics. It is my expectation - this A820/MR70 combo will be the end of all tape repro quest.

A good friend of mine had already executed the idea with Ampex 102/MR70 when he lived in Japan and I thought I saw the machine from one of the photos in FB from the current NY audio show.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Great effort would love to hear it


So most would conclude that a tape machine is outdeveloped then,no matter how good the top studers are there is still place for a modern machine as well , continuum developed a SOTA turntable and making a profit wasn t the goal i assume , so the same could be done by a similar well funded team on a tapemachine project

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

KI Choi very interesting
as you of all people well know the A80, due to its full analogue construction, does not have a headblock pre, needed to protect a very weak signal from all the inherent noise in A810 and A820s from their switchmode psu s and digital logic circuits
also the repro section in the A80s is not split into separate repro and line boards full of opamps
so it s very easy and straightfw to hotrod an A80R as a pure repro machine
the signal only is wired from headblock(possibly bypassing the connector) to motherboard in which the repro board is inserted in a slot...the signal is then fed back to mb and out to in/out xlr board..thats it
for external signal processing it can either go direct from headblock to complete circuit with eq, line amp, buffer and all or tapped after eq and gain stage 1 on repro board for separate tube or ss buffer
just to clarify......
best
Leif

 

[rockitman]

Hows that ARIA repro amp compared to Doshi and the Bottlehead?
anyone tried the Tubeguru repros from Hungary? makes nice SE amps and pres....ex Siemens guy I think
quite a few of his amps in Norway
very well built !
even have one combined repro and record
http://www.tubeguru.eu/preamps-/
best
Leif

I have heard the tube guru a few years back. I thought it sounded very good but had a bit of a hum issue IIRC. This may have been corrected since then.

 

[microstrip]

Yesterday I had the pleasure of listening to a few tapes (including Tapeproject 10) played through a Telefunken M15A and a Doshi tape preamplfier. The sound was very good, but the complete absence of subjective noise really impressed me - much far better than my Bottlehead Eros. Nothing I should not expect - the four Telefunken ECC801s used in the preamplifier cost more than the Eros head preamplifier.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I might buy a fully restored one in the future , here is a german man that restores /sells them , so the doshi seems to have an exxcelent S/N ratio , any idea how much ??

http://www.hilpert-audio.de/audio/index_e.php?site=geraete&inhalt=geraete/e_geraete_aeg_m15.htm

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I suspect you´re more on your own when it comes to spare parts and service than with the Studers, but soundwise @the top
best
Leif

 

[c1ferrari]

So far, I went a step further with one of the A820s by removing all record related heads (erase and record), repositioned repro head in record head spot, removed tape head preamp and wired directly to the headblock DB connector, removed original Studer head DB connector from the chassis, installed a new connector with fully balanced wiring in the chassis then sent the wires to a pair of XLR direct head out connectors. All audio cards were removed.

It's a pure tape transport feeding signal to tubed Manley tapehead preamp or SS Cello Audio Suite. But the madness will continue and the headblock will make a trip to JRF soon for Ampex MR70 repro head installation to mate with a pair of rebuilt MR-70 tubed electronics. It is my expectation - this A820/MR70 combo will be the end of all tape repro quest.

Whoa! Ki! I'm afraid I am not acquainted with the MR-70, but am fascinated with the A820/MR70 chimera
I've heard of Ampex 351(?) tubed repro electronics being re-purposed for mic preamp duty; however, this harvesting
of Ampex electronics for anything other than Ampex tape decks doesn't augur well with Ampexians...or so I've read.

 

[Tom B.]

There is a general convention that if you take a machine, Ampex or whatever, and repair/restore it as a whole, you've furthered its original purpose and perhaps saved much of it from the inevitable junk heap. Quite a few studio guys pick up Ampex 350/351 electronics with the intention of making a 'toob' mic preamp out of them, but in reality many of them are destroyed in the process and once converted, they're no longer useful for tape duty. The 35X preamps aren't really impressive as mic amps anyway and there are better units out there that ultimately cost far less.


I have a different opinion about the MR70 machines and their electronics (I own two MR70's and twice as many 'parts' machines). The MR70 transport is extremely difficult to maintain and it uses parts that aren't found on the other Ampex transports of that era. There is nothing special about the transport that wasn't bettered by the later Studer machines. Sure, it its day it was a great machine, still is, very stable, solid, excellent tape handling. working properly they're a joy to use; I use mine as much as any other tape machine. But, you're talking about a design in which only a limited amount were made (unofficial count is 80-ish, I doubt it was that low). Many transports have been sacrificed to keep others running. That leaves extra electronics.....

MR70 electronics are wonderful. The Ampex engineers really hit a home-run with these. All the EQ curves you could want and what I feel is the pinnacle in tape sound. For previously mentioned reasons, over time the transports were set aside but the electronics re-purposed, many of them mated with other transports (you at least need a MR70 PB head due to the tertiary winding in the head transformer). I'm OK with the using these electronics on other machines, it's been done more than once and if that's what it takes to keep these MR70 preamps in use, then fine.

I wouldn't necessarily gut a decent MR70 just to get it's electronics, but finding 'decent' ones isn't so common anymore. Just sayin'....

Tom

 

[Ron Resnick]

Why do you suppose this A80RC Mk II is listed at $90,250? (even if it is based on an almost unused A80 and comes with a new outboard power supply and special Mark Levinson electronics?)

http://m.ebay.com/itm/ATAE-CLASSIC-...3D201407971072&_trksid=p2056116.c100408.m2460

Is Fred Thal's SHRO (single head repro only) that unique, and that superior to JRF and other replacement heads?

Is anyone personally familiar with ATAE's machines, and how they sound versus other refurbished A80s?