Review: Durand Telos Tonearm

[mep]

It's getting to be a deep, deep pocket product. What value does sapphire add for the VTA tower? What value does it add for the antiskating gizmo? Is Joel really being secretive about the metal he is using for the counterweights? Calling it "un-obtainium" isn't quite accurate since Joel can get his hands on it. They look like they are made from SS.

 

[rockitman]

so is this a synthetic sapphire material...similar properties to the precious stone variety ? Congrats Mike. I like the lighted look. Nice touch that's not distracting.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It's getting to be a deep, deep pocket product. What value does sapphire add for the VTA tower? What value does it add for the antiskating gizmo? Is Joel really being secretive about the metal he is using for the counterweights? Calling it "un-obtainium" isn't quite accurate since Joel can get his hands on it. They look like they are made from SS.

Mark,

i respect your skepticism. it's debatable to even discuss this product here. but the questions get asked and so they get answered.

the Sapphire parts of the Azimuth bracket and azimuth rod are functional without using the anti-skate. the 'little hook', the thread and weights, and the extended arm are the same for the standard Telos and the Sapphire. and as i listened to a number of different materials over a period of time for these parts, i know which one's sounded best to my ears. hint, starts with an 'S'.

as far as Joel's perspective on his materials and such, everyone is entitled to their opinion about that.

i can tell you that that the un-obtainium material weighs twice as much as stainless. i have two identical shape and sized spacers on my two Telos's.

while we are on that subject allow me to clear up some miss information i posted earlier. in my earlier post about the Telos Sapphire from last night i identified some of the components on the stock Telos as stainless steel.

my Telos Sapphire has a few other unique pieces that individually raise the performance bar. (1) the counter weights are made of the same un-obtainium metal as the Telos base instead of stainless like the stock Telos. for the NVS installation the Telos needs a spacer for the base for height; (2) my Telos Sapphire spacer is also made of the un-obtainium metal. other Telos tonearms have the bearing tower made of stainless with a Sapphire insert, and the bearing sets on top of the tip. (3) my bearing is underslung which allows for the use of a special bearing lubricant, and (4) my whole bearing tower is solid Sapphire. on the stock Telos the anti-skate bridge on the azimuth platform is made of stainless; both the posts and crossbar. (5) on mine it is all Sapphire. and (6) the azimuth post on the armwand is all Sapphire instead of stainless.

if I overlooked something I apologize.

my Telos also has an upgraded cable from Found Music, but it's not directly part of the Telos Sapphire 'pre-production' package.

the whole tone arm base and counterweights of the stock Telos are un-obtainium 1. the base of the Telos Sapphire is the same metal as the stock Telos, but the counter weights of the Sapphire are un-obtainium 2.

the bearing column of the stock Telos is un-obtainium 2.

the Telos Sapphire has an inverted pivot, in case my 'underslung' term is not correct.

and finally the Telos Sapphire does have a 'much' upgraded cable compared to the stock Telos.

sorry i did not have all this completely straight, but hopefully that sets it right.

now have your fun with un-obtainium 1 compared to un-obtainium 2. i'm sure that will get a few panties in a bunch.

 

[mep]

No panties in a bunch Mike. Obviously the metal isn't "un-obtainium" or Joel couldn't get his paws on it either. Obviously it can be machined easily or it wouldn't have been chosen for use. That throws out titanium. It looks like CRES 304, but I'm probably wrong. I will have a machinist look at the pictures and see if he has any ideas on what the metal is. Trust me, it's obtainable.

 

[jazdoc]

so is this a synthetic sapphire material...similar properties to the precious stone variety ? Congrats Mike. I like the lighted look. Nice touch that's not distracting.

You should see it lit up in red...a real New Orlean's vibe

 

[rockitman]

You should see it lit up in red...a real New Orlean's vibe

I have my Clearaudio lower platter illuminated in Litlite red....The TechDas...has no lighted bling....oh well.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No panties in a bunch Mike. Obviously the metal isn't "un-obtainium" or Joel couldn't get his paws on it either. Obviously it can be machined easily or it wouldn't have been chosen for use. That throws out titanium. It looks like CRES 304, but I'm probably wrong. I will have a machinist look at the pictures and see if he has any ideas on what the metal is. Trust me, it's obtainable.

blame me for the term 'un-obtainium', not Joel.

when Joel originally told me he could not tell me (or just preferred not to tell me) exactly what metal he was using I 'dubed' it 'un-obtainium' from back when Mark Donohue was racing....I was a big fan of his back then.

the material "unobtainium" was first used by Roger Penske and Mark Donahue on the 1971 Can Am Porsche 917-30. They made the space frame out of a different material and when people asked them what the material was they responded "unobtanium" to let them know it was effing expensive and they probably couldn't obtain it.

so after a time it was easier to refer to the metal by that term than 'the metal that could not be named'.

you are welcome to knock yourself out figuring it out.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

so is this a synthetic sapphire material...similar properties to the precious stone variety ? Congrats Mike. I like the lighted look. Nice touch that's not distracting.

it is a crystal that is grown for industrial purposes and very hard. then machined into the parts. no cheap way to do it. but no substitute for what it does either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapphire

 

[PeterA]

Thank you Mike.

Those additional close-up photos of your arm on the Wake Kinetics table are wonderful. They prompt me to ask two more questions: First, the azimuth arm and weight look as though they rest on the cross bar and slide fore and aft as the arm moves toward the spindle. If this is indeed the case, is there some friction at this point, and if so, does that introduce a potential resonance into the system? Does it cause some resistance, perhaps intended, to the movement of the arm?

So, I'm still looking at the azimuth mechanism and don't understand how it works. It appears as though the bar extending off of the wooden arm wand is resting on the cross-member and slides along it as the arm moves. This must cause some friction and perhaps some resonance. Can anyone explain this mechanism?

 

[jazdoc]

So, I'm still looking at the azimuth mechanism and don't understand how it works. It appears as though the bar extending off of the wooden arm wand is resting on the cross-member and slides along it as the arm moves. This must cause some friction and perhaps some resonance. Can anyone explain this mechanism?

The horizontal bar extending from the tonearm wand does glide along the cross-member. This is why the design is a constrained unipivot, rather than a true unipivot. The horizontal bar can be adjusted up and down by a collar that attaches to the VTA tower; therefore changing the azimuth. Interesting, the amount of tighting of the screws on the collar makes a huge difference; you want it tight enough to keep it fixed in postion (obviously), but over-tightening really deadens and closes in the sound. An 1/8th of a turn can make a big difference. Likewise, the amount of weight and where it is located on the horizontal bar changes the sound.

As to this mechanism being a site of potential resonance and friction; that intuitively makes sense (and I don't have the mechanical engineering chops to say that this is or isn't an issue), but taken as an organic whole; this is the best tonearm I've ever heard in MY system.

 

[audioarcher]

So, I'm still looking at the azimuth mechanism and don't understand how it works. It appears as though the bar extending off of the wooden arm wand is resting on the cross-member and slides along it as the arm moves. This must cause some friction and perhaps some resonance. Can anyone explain this mechanism?

Looks to me that the arm wand is weighted to lean on to the azimuth mechanism. As Mark says lowering or raising the bar adjusts azimuth. This is the first arm that I've seen that takes this approach. Making the azimuth bars out of Sapphire makes sense to me because the harder and smoother the material is the less friction there will be.

It is a very fine sounding arm. I've heard it at Mike Lavigne's place a few times. Joel also demoed it for our us at our audio club (PNWAS) last year. Which was one of the best sounding demos I've heard at the club. That was not the sapphire version though.

 

[banpuku]

Jazdoc and Mike L,

I have an original Telos and like it very much. A couple of quick thoughts and questions:

a. you mentioned the screws on the azimuth collar and how their tightness can impact the sound. Last night I verified what you suggested, as making the screws just barely tight really improved the sound. I suspect this is a function of vibration damping. The horizontal bar would, in theory, have more micro-vibration if the screws are very tight. Whereby, "looser" screws would allow the 4 collar pads (teflon, I believe) to provide some micro-vibration damping. Just a thought.

b. It appears as though both Jazdoc and Mike L do not use the anti-skate weights. Just ruminating, but this might be a function of the the tonearm's tangental horizontal bar having friction against the azimith collar's support bar. The friction acts as an inherent anti-skate mechanism. So, if there is sufficient weight added (via the small steel discs) to the tangental horizontal bar, then there is no need for the anti-skate weight.

Regarding the anti-skate, I am curious about how much weight you are using on the tangental horizontal bar. Which of the disc(s) are you using? If you don't mind, please let me know how much they weigh, as your's might be different than mine.

I am using the stock steel cartridge plate. I see that their is a saphire plate, but doubt that I will get it. I was thinking about creating a DIY plate using my Permali or Delignit products which are very vibration damping. Thoughts on this?

Finally, are you using any lubricant on the uni-pivot bearing? If so, what kind? I currently am running mine dry.

Thanks,
Pat

 

[jazdoc]

Hi Pat --

I'll jump in here and hopefully Mike can share his insights...

a. Agreed. I keep azimuth collar screws tight enough to keep the attached azimuth bar stable, but loose enough to allow rotation of collar with mild force. It's worth experimenting to find 'best' for your system. Try experimenting with different size weights and their locations on the azimuth bar. Small differences can make a big change in the character of the sound. I use Eileen Jewell's "I Remember You" track from Queen of the Minor Key. When azimuth is right, everything seems to snap into place and become better defined and harmonically richer; the sound board on the bass becomes audible, the pluck of Eilen's acoustic guitar becomes more realistic and her voice is more fleshed out in the center. The sound of the brushes on the drums is more realistic on the right side of the soundstage. I've found tracks from the wonderful "Entre Amigos" LP by Rosa Passos and Ron Carter also very useful for dialing in the azimuth.

I don't know enough mechanical engineering to hazard a guess as to 'why' this is so.

b. I have gone back and forth with anti-skating but use the middle sized antiskating weight with my Benz LPS.

Hopefully Mike will chime in re: saphirre cartridge plate.

I am not using any lubricant on the bearing. I will check with Joel for his input