Reviewing the Furutec Demag

[Mike Lavigne]

I know you said you don't care if we believe it or not. But I hope that is not the case. We are all here because we share a passion for improving audio performance. The more you believe in these devices working, the more you owe us to help us become converted. That is no different than telling us such and such speaker is better than another. No?

Amir,

yes i care. but after hitting my head against the wall over many years i have learned that some things are experiential only. no need to try to logically convince those who are skeptical.

do you think that before those pro audio guys heard the vinyl or Tourmaline gun they would have accepted some sort of logic as any sort of proof? very very unlikely. would it have been worth my time to try and write something that could convince them. never. we see it on WBF every day. my comment is always; come here and listen for yourself then tell me i'm wrong.

it's never happened yet (many have visted, none have continued their skeptcism). the strongest arguement is 'i would not pay the cost for the difference i heard'....but mostly it's 'OMG!'.

so i no longer care about convincing. i invite observation.

i don't try to explain cause and effect, i explain how others have reacted to the discovery.

 

[garylkoh]

Amir, the brain is sometimes like that. It expects a difference, and it can determine a difference. But if that difference is really not there, or the difference is insignificant, then by the brain being used to hearing the two samples, it merges them and suddenly there is no difference.

I did an early experiment where I listened to two identical digital files, one fragmented and one contiguous on a hard drive with a tiny cache. The contiguous file sounded less digital, had more "air" around the instruments, and had more "meat on the bones". May be the two identical files you listened to one was fragmented and the other wasn't? With a SSD, fragmented files and contiguous files sound far, far closer.

I did another ABX comparison with two files - one 24/192 and another 24/192 downsampled to 24/44.1 and then re-upsampled to 24/192. The first time I did the ABX, I scored 18/20. The second time, I scored 14/20. The third time, I scored 11/20. So I figured that I was too tired and gave it a week's break before going back to the two files - I scored 12/20. Was there a difference to start with, but that difference degenerated over time?

I read the article on The Decline Effect and The Truth Wears Off posted on this forum yesterday - extremely interesting.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/12/13/101213fa_fact_lehrer

 

[garylkoh]

i'm happy to offer the loan of my Acoustic Revive ML-30 to Gary to do his tests.

i just want it to be clear that i'm not taking any position on this stuff; i'm only willing to offer people the opportunity to investigate for themselves. i am not interested in participating in any DBX or whatever test.

Thanks, Mike. I'll appreciate that. I don't think that we have time to do this at the next meeting - we have lots to cover - but if you could bring it to the meeting, I'll make the files and post them so that those interested can download and listen for themselves at their own time at their own pace.

 

[Gregadd]

I have heard about this debate for a long time but never engaged in it and would have taken the same stance had Greg not asked me to comment. One thing about me: if you ask me by name, I will come! Not sure what about that is taking the bait Greg as if I had not answered, then it would become, "I asked Amir about it and he was too scared to answer" kind of argument.

I have no particular interest in the Furetech demag. At one time I did own the Dischwasher Zerostat used to remove the static charge, Sometimes in winter the charge on vinyl was so strong in would emit a little spark when touched it.
My point of this thread was to expose how the two sides (observations vs measurements) approach a tweak product of questionable scientific validity. I tried as best I could to mimic the arguments that subjectivists like me make when we hear something that might go against scientifc evidence. Your rebuttal was a little personal but was for the most part far more substantive than most. Anyone considering the purchase or use of this device should give serious consideration to the points you raised.

Mike has a fine ear, an enviable record collection and one of the finest systems, IMO, that you can assemble. When he says he heard something, it should be at least investigated.

I thank you for your posts. Done at 1:00 am.

I think you and Mike have perfectly framed the issue for Gary. I think the problems with evaluating tweaks are illuminated by the points you and Mike made. Hopefully it will help us make better decisions

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Amir,

Gary's description of the differences in various sample rates and upsampling and do0wnsampling of PCM brings to mind a point.

if i was making claims of how various media management schemes, sample rates, and up or down sampling changes the sonic performance of PCM everyone would be cool with it. not all would agree but it would not hit anyone's 'BS' meter because everyone has an experience to some degree with that.

but get into areas where few have actual listening experience and the skepticism comes out. it's no mystery why. the more technically educated the reader is, the less tolerant they are with stuff they are have not been exposed to. i'm not saying that that perspective is wrong. it just is.

demagnatizing=voodoo.

so why push my viewpoint?

 

[garylkoh]

Let's see if we can make some sense out of this voodoo. I can hear the difference with the tourmaline hairdryer, and with the Talisman, but I've never owned a demagnetizer. This will be interesting. Ultimately, it boils down to whether I will take the bother to go through this ritual before enjoying the music - and I would rather drop the stylus on the groove than take the 3 minutes it takes to demagnetize or blow-dry the LP. May be that's just me, but I prefer listening to music.

 

[amirm]

Let me provide a perspective here. This forum would not exist if I was an objectivist with a mind closed to just about anything in audio world. Why? Well, once upon a time there was a forum where a couple of people were taking a beating to every audiophile there, claiming a $200 AVR was just as good as any other product and that a $1 DAC in a receiver performed the same as a dedicated DAC. They thought the science was on their side. Well, it wasn't . There is science to support some theories of improvement in fidelity with better design and attention to esoteric issues. I came to the defense of the audiophiles there. That is how I got to know Steve. Fast forward a few months later and we are talking about having a new forum where we politely talk about any and all issues without the due stress of one side completely shutting down every discussion with "but, prove to me it works before we can discuss it."

If you examine my posts, you see that I do come to defenses of both sides depending on the topic and claims being made. When there is any science -- however remote -- that can explain the experiences I will search for it and put it forth. I had my dogmatic years of not believing in anything high-end but it all finished in 10 years ago when I did my share of blind tests and did find differences in things that I thought would not be different.

So I take some exception to Greg picking me to represent one side . I have no side! I am a mix of science and experiences. Sometimes that tilts me one way, sometimes the other. If I believe in one thing is this: the "truth" is in the middle. I don't want to be there to be sure as a person in the middle gets hit by both sides as you may have seen with my battles with Ethan and Greg . But I see no way out of it. Too many experiences to put aside to stick to one camp or the other's point of view.

 

[Gregadd]

So I take some exception to Greg picking me to represent one side . I have no side! I am a mix of science and experiences. Sometimes that tilts me one way, sometimes the other. If I believe in one thing is this: the "truth" is in the middle. I don't want to be there to be sure as a person in the middle gets hit by both sides as you may have seen with my battles with Ethan and Greg . But I see no way out of it. Too many experiences to put aside to stick to one camp or the other's point of view.

AMIR anyone who cares to know is aware of your philosophy. They just need to read your posts on this forum

I think your response on this thread is objectivist not dogmatic. A closed mind would make you dogmatic.

Just as an aside, I think the truth is sometimes on the right, on the left and in the middle.

 

[Ron Party]

Greg, I personally wish to thank you for starting this thread. I completely agree with you that this thread has illustrated at least some (if not all) of the various approaches we take when examining claims of audibility. If we understanding these approaches, regardless of the approach to which any of us personally subscribe, and can discuss them cordially, we all stand to benefit and all of the members of this forum can stand proud.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I will say this and sit on the sidelines. Certain things cannot work.. I am not including the Furutech, just yet, I do not hav emuch use for such in my present system which is HDD-based. I do however find interesting how we audiophiles are gullible to the point of naivete. We seem to take it that if it exist then it should make a difference and to paraphrase Gray your brain will quickly construct such difference .. Why is it then that when knowledge is removed we become so uncertain? I must say that in some cases it s not so, speakers in my personal expereinces electronics, mainly amps and preamps.
THe mention of knowledge removed or its AKAs quickly send audiophile in a furry and has derailed more than one thread. It remains that our biases are strong and that in order for us to be able to ascertain the accuracy of our observations we must try to eliminate thee biases, unless one is satisfied in just throwing opinions .

At the core of such discussions is the knowledge... Many will scoff at that but one learns from such discussions if one is willing and if one is humble enough to question one's own observations. Some people do, most don't and will construct all kinds of argumentation to fit their point of views however tenuous the argumentation might be....
I would like to think I am open minded. I will always question an observation with these:
Repeatability? Can it be repeated?
Reliability: Can it be repeated reliably?

Else I think it is only wise to have doubt, especially with over the top assertion on things that based on the very science that brought music reproduction to our lives has the same chance to work as winning the lottery every time one plays it ... Or that the explanations from the manufacturers defy everything one knows about Science or that some assertions are at least suspect ... Independent Lab being the one which caught my attention on the Furutech .. Or more often than not cost enough to buy a decent component (or tons of music) in a decent system (The Furutech Demag thing cost close to $2000) ...
I have my doubt about the effectiveness of the Furutech, I have such about the Tourmaline .. I am waiting for Gary results...

 

[amirm]

AMIR anyone who cares to know is aware of your philosophy. They just need to read your posts on this forum

I am fascinated when you speak like a lawyer .

I think your response on this thread is objectivist not dogmatic. A closed mind would make you dogmatic.

I don't like the title of objectivist. I am systematic. I like to create a plan to prove or disprove something. I don't like to jump in the middle of the experience. There needs to be a start, a middle and a finish. You think about what could the device do and how you can prove or disprove it. If you are going to test water purity from a well, you don't use a dirty glass to sample it. Jumping in the middle would call for using any glass and then following it with lab test, feeling good that you used a "lab" so the results must be valid. Not so.

Being proper is good no matter what your point of view. Take away all of my objective tools and I would still have a systematic approach. I would study what effect magnetism would have on LP and CD playback. I would then think through what music or test tones would be most sensitive and least sensitive. Then test the hypothesis. All of this could be sighted and performed like you would. Instead of "just use your ears" I would say, "just use your ears and brain.'!!! Indeed, I perform a ton of subjective tests as it is a method that is immediately available to us. But there is a right way to do it and a random way to do it. The right way may not be conclusive but imagine if it is. How much you would learn and how powerful and useful the experience would be to share.

Just as an aside, I think the truth is sometimes on the right, on the left and in the middle.

You again speak as a lawyer . Carefully picking your words.....

 

[Ron Party]

I don't like the title of objectivist. I am systematic. I like to create a plan to prove or disprove something. I don't like to jump in the middle of the experience. There needs to be a start, a middle and a finish. You think about what could the device do and how you can prove or disprove it. If you are going to test water purity from a well, you don't use a dirty glass to sample it. Jumping in the middle would call for using any glass and then following it with lab test, feeling good that you used a "lab" so the results must be valid. Not so.

I also don't care must for that title. I prefer rationalist.

 

[garylkoh]

Amir, as the fence sitter.... what music would you think would make the most difference, and what would make the least difference. Gregadd, Tim, Ethan - I would appreciate your suggestions as well.

So at least I can pick some music that might be accepted by both sides when I do make the test.

 

[amirm]

More research into the science of it needs to be done to answer that Greg.

That said, we know with CD we don't lose the high-order bits no matter what. When an explosion comes at 100db,I doubt that any magnetization is going to reduce that. So I always uses delicate sound. A guitar pick which goes into silence. If I have the ability to loop, I set the points after the loud portion and then into nothing. Then I turn the volume way up and listen. That way, I can hear the low-order bits better. No guarantee one can hear the same effect at normal volume but still, we can discover an effect is there or not. I have found this technique to work to detect differences between DACs, cables, audio formats, etc.

BTW, one other technique might be useful in the same line as above. Magnetize the hell out of the CD and see if degrades! After all, if removing just 10% of its magnetism helps, then doubling or tripling it should make it a lot worse. Take one of your rare magnets and go to town rubbing a short distance away from the CD. But two of the same music and only do that with one and keep the other one way away. And then listen to both using the above scheme.

 

[garylkoh]

I thought that we were talking about de-magging LPs. The problem with CD's is that the data is the same - but I guess if you record the analog output of the CD player you could conceivably do this too...... but I no longer own a CD player having move to all music servers at home and at the office.

 

[amirm]

They make equal claims for both. And so did the reviewers.

You could try my magnetization trick with LP though. Magnetize the outer area and not inner, etc.

 

[Gregadd]

WIth the discussion of talking like lawyers and semantics i thought we might use a musical break.

 

[Ron Party]

Beautiful.

 

[amirm]

Greg always likes to show off that he knows more about classic music than I know about technology .

 

[garylkoh]

Thanks, Greg. That was a nice break.