Reviewing the Furutec Demag

[amirm]

But of course you see the irony don't you? Stereo reproduction is an attempt to effect human perception. It is that very perception that you say is unreliable. It's not the human perception that has failed. It's our attempt to influence. it.

If we could bottle the empty euphoria then you would be right. Same as if we could bottle the placebo effect of sugar pills and have it treat illness. Sadly, that false impression cannot be reliably created. If the improvement you hear is not really there but an illusion, it could disappear the next minute when your brain is no longer motivated to hear it. Think about it. Something false cannot be lasting.

As far as the Furetech demag is concerned. Magnetism and it's effects can be measured. It puzzles me that instead of all this name calling someone did not just measure it.

This is backward. It is not up to non-believers to go and buy a sensitive Gauss meter and measure this. It is up to the magazine reviewers and the company advocating it to do so. Going to a local university for one try on a sample which was not then subjected to before and after listening tests by a group of people means nothing.

Again, you are thinking like a non-lawyer .

 

[garylkoh]

I've sure you have expereinced that your favorite recordings change as your system changes. These two seem to remain favorites no matter what.

Yes - of course. It was less than 15 years ago when I made a change that all of a sudden made massed strings really enjoyable. I'm looking forward to these two if they are some of your favourites. Two of your recommendations and others I learned about on this forum are not my new favourites.

 

[garylkoh]

This is backward. It is not up to non-believers to go and buy a sensitive Gauss meter and measure this. It is up to the magazine reviewers and the company advocating it to do so. Going to a local university for one try on a sample which was not then subjected to before and after listening tests by a group of people means nothing.

Not unless the non-believers are trying to make a non-believer out of a believer. If you did that in church, you could be burned at the stake. I'm a very simple man, and if I find something I like, I like to share it with my friends. My friends don't have to like it. My friends don't even have to try it. But my friends don't tell me that I am deluded because I like it.

If as believers we are not dogmatic, and we don't rub the faces of the non believers in it, I think that we can all co-exist happily, still remain friends and enrich each other's lives

Substitute believer for either the listeners or the measurers, and substitute non-believer for either listeners or measurers as you wish. We are all the same under the facade, we are all lovers of music.

 

[Gregadd]

amirm;37339If we could bottle the empty euphoria then you would be right. Same as if we could bottle the placebo effect of sugar pills and have it treat illness. Sadly, that false impression cannot be reliably created. If the improvement you hear is not really there but an illusion, it could disappear the next minute when your brain is no longer motivated to hear it. Think about it. Something false cannot be lasting.

I'm talking about reality not an illusion.

This is backward. It is not up to non-believers to go and buy a sensitive Gauss meter and measure this. It is up to the magazine reviewers and the company advocating it to do so. Going to a local university for one try on a sample which was not then subjected to before and after listening tests by a group of people means nothing.

It means everyting to the end user.

If you challenging something it's your obligation to provide the proof. In the law we have something called a "prima facie" case. It means that assuming the testimony is true and granting it all reasonable inferences the party with the burden of proof has made out a sufficient case If you don't rebut it you lose. Of course thier is second chance for the case to fail.

empty euphoria" I'm not sure what that means. Sounds like an oxymoron. As for placebos, I think we should investigate that. I'd rather have my cancer cured by a sugar pill rather than series of chemotherapy treatments. Would not that be great? We could trick someone into curing their own cancer.

Again, you are thinking like a non-lawyer .

How would you know? Just for your edifcation most law schools use the Socratic method. Maybe you should leave legal analysis to me.

Yeah it's a tiring job. Sometimes I am just a hobbyist.

I don't know how this got personal. Maybe it was that "took the bait "comment I made."

 

[Gregadd]

Yes - of course. It was less than 15 years ago when I made a change that all of a sudden made massed strings really enjoyable. I'm looking forward to these two if they are some of your favourites. Two of your recommendations and others I learned about on this forum are not my new favourites.

"...not your new favorites. "Uh oh. Now the pressure is on. Does that mean you want your money back. Disclaimer- Look at my signaturel line.

 

[mep]

"...not your new favorites. "Uh oh. Now the pressure is on. Does that mean you want your money back. Disclaimer- Look at my signaturel line.

I think Gary meant to say "now" instead of "not."

 

[Gregadd]

I hope so.

 

[amirm]

If you challenging something it's your obligation to provide the proof.

I provided plenty. I used their own measurements against them. A reduction of 10% of magnetic field that was at start and finish still 20,000 less than earth's residual magnetic field. I explained that a slight increase in ripping speed means nothing if not repeated for consistency. I explained sloppy work showing 70% THD measures.

I shouldn't have to show much anyway. As Ethan has said, the more incredible the claim, the more responsibility the provider has to prove that it is effective. No matter what you believe, I hope you believe that a CD player at least, should be pretty immune to magnetism effect due to laser pick up and the fact that it already has a motor with a magnet in it.

You are the lawyer and can answer this better but if I said some sugar pills grow hair, I will have the Attorney Generals of half the states going after me for fraud. They would force *me* to show evidence. They would not go and conduct their own test at their expense to prove it doesn't work.

In the law we have something called a "prima facie" case. It means that assuming the testimony is true and granting it all reasonable inferences the party with the burden of proof has made out a sufficient case If you don't rebut it you lose. Of course thier is second chance for the case to fail.

I am very familiar with Prima Facie principal and fortunately it works extremely well against this product. Here is the wiki definition of it:

"Prima facie (pronounced /?pra?m? ?fe???.i?/,[1] from Latin pr?m? faci?) is a Latin expression meaning on its first appearance, or at first sight. "

You honestly want us to believe that "first impression" of this product would make one think it works? If I surveyed 100 professors at leading universities, I am confident every one of them say it would not. They would also say none of the anecdotal evidence to the contrary from members here and reviewers constitute eval the shallowest definition of proof of its effectiveness. See my first answer on the *beginning* of a methodology. Remember again, the more outlandish the claim, the higher the bar.

"empty euphoria" I'm not sure what that means. Sounds like an oxymoron.

I thought it was very fitting description of something that falsly makes you feel good. Have you ever washed your car and thought it ran better?

As for placebos, I think we should investigate that. I'd rather have my cancer cured by a sugar pill rather than series of chemotherapy treatments. Would not that be great? We could trick someone into curing their own cancer.

Everyone agrees that would be good. The fact that it is not done should make you think twice in telling us we should believe first, and be proven wrong second. Be curious for heaven's sake. Ask "why" before "how." Why would the device work? If you seek knowledge, then you want to start there. If you don't seek knowledge, then say so and I won't spend any time discussing these topics with you.

How would you know? Just for your edifcation most law schools use the Socratic method.

Heck, use Socratic method. Any method would be better than this back and forth. There is no logic, rhyme or reason in anything you are putting forth. It is all casual, layman argument of "I think I am right therefore I am right" stuff. Even if you are right, it makes for an empty discussion with you as it is not bringing anything to the discussion other than dragging on this thread. Which I get . But at the end, you have to provide some insight, some knowledge, some revelation than repeating over and over again that someone said this works, so it must.

Maybe you should leave legal analysis to me...I don't know how this got personal. Maybe it was that "took the bait "comment I made."

Now this is the first time you have started to think like a lawyer . Cause and effect. A process. A way of reasoning through things. A way of looking for insight into why the other guy is saying what he is saying. Apply this to the topic at hand and we would be good to go!

 

[garylkoh]

I think Gary meant to say "now" instead of "not."

Yes I did. Mark you know me so well.

Sorry, Greg. The Nigerian Marketplace is in danger of being worn out )

 

[Gregadd]

amirm;37368]I provided plenty. I used their own measurements against them. A reduction of 10% of magnetic field that was at start and finish still 20,000 less than earth's residual magnetic field. I explained that a slight increase in ripping speed means nothing if not repeated for consistency. I explained sloppy work showing 70% THD measures.

Sigh! OK I'll say it again. The purpose of this thread was not to advocate the efficacy of the Furetech demag. I could care less. The purpose was to provide some insight into how such products are assessed audiophiles,scientists, and audio reviewers. My gut reaction was that vinyl(PVC) cannot be magnetized. I found the claims of improvements in CD even less credible. The claims for cables almost laughable. Added to that their claim that they used cryogenically treated parts and even had an aftermarket cord made my eyes roll. So I tossed you a hanging curve ball and you knocked it out of the park. It seems like you are mad because I did not pitch you a wicked slider. That is, maybe you found criticizing the Furutech not challenging enough.
With respect to the THD it appeared the columns were mislabeled. The S/N was transposed with the THD. That was sloppy but not fatal.

I shouldn't have to show much anyway. As Ethan has said, the more incredible the claim, the more responsibility the provider has to prove that it is effective. No matter what you believe, I hope you believe that a CD player at least, should be pretty immune to magnetism effect due to laser pick up and the fact that it already has a motor with a magnet in it.

You Quoting Ethan? Clearly right or wrong Furetech did not regard their claims as incredible. That would explain but not necessarily justify their approach.

You are the lawyer and can answer this better but if I said some sugar pills grow hair, I will have the Attorney Generals of half the states going after me for fraud. They would force *me* to show evidence. They would not go and conduct their own test at their expense to prove it doesn't work.

No we pay Consumer Reports, et ai to do it for us.
Thankfully the Pharmaceutical Industry is much better regulated than ours. People die when they make a mistake. We just lose our money and suffer embarrassment. I think FDA needs to do better enforcement of their laws. Moreover their crackdown on Homeopathic medicine borders on the draconian.

I am very familiar with Prima Facie principal and fortunately it works extremely well against this product. Here is the wiki definition of it:

"Prima facie (pronounced /?pra?m? ?fe???.i?/,[1] from Latin pr?m? faci?) is a Latin expression meaning on its first appearance, or at first sight. "

I love WIkepdia. It remains a work in progress. For the legal definition See, Blacks Law Dictionary.

You honestly want us to believe that "first impression" of this product would make one think it works? If I surveyed 100 professors at leading universities, I am confident every one of them say it would not. They would also say none of the anecdotal evidence to the contrary from members here and reviewers constitute eval the shallowest definition of proof of its effectiveness. See my first answer on the *beginning* of a methodology. Remember again, the more outlandish the claim, the higher the bar.

It's pure speculation as to what 100 professors would say. I defined proof already as a body of competence evidence. Neither of us have any intention to contact a hundred professors. It My point is that anecdotal evidence leads to further investigation. By analogy, where probable cause exist it will not convict but is cause for further investigation.

I thought it was very fitting description of something that falsely makes you feel good. Have you ever washed your car and thought it ran better?

No. Washing my car only makes it rain.

Everyone agrees that would be good. The fact that it is not done should make you think twice in telling us we should believe first, and be proven wrong second. Be curious for heaven's sake. Ask "why" before "how." Why would the device work? If you seek knowledge, then you want to start there. I have no ability to test this product. that's why i refuse to call Furetech iincompetent a liar or a fraud. If you don't seek knowledge, then say so and I won't spend any time discussing these topics with you.

"No need to break our crayons."
Once again the knowledge I seek is to critique how products of questionable scientifc validity are evaluated.

Heck, use Socratic method. Any method would be better than this back and forth. There is no logic, rhyme or reason in anything you are putting forth. It is all casual, layman argument of "I think I am right therefore I am right" stuff. Even if you are right, it makes for an empty discussion with you as it is not bringing anything to the discussion other than dragging on this thread. Which I get . But at the end, you have to provide some insight, some knowledge, some revelation than repeating over and over again that someone said this works, so it must.

Not bringing anything to the threafd? It was my idea. Thank you for your assittance.
Laymen don't have rhyme, reason ,or logic?
See my earlier statement about my objective.

Now this is the first time you have started to think like a lawyer . Cause and effect. A process. A way of reasoning through things. A way of looking for insight into why the other guy is saying what he is saying. Apply this to the topic at hand and we would be good to go!

"It's never to late to be better than you are."

Your comments only illuminate my point. So please continue.

 

[amirm]

Not unless the non-believers are trying to make a non-believer out of a believer. .... We are all the same under the facade, we are all lovers of music.

Your post was well reasoned. If I may add another perspective, there is more than one hobby/interest here:

1. Listing to music and enjoying one's system.

2. Interacting with other like-minded people.

3. Trying to convince others that your choices and beliefs in audio are more correct.

4. Learning what makes these technologies tick.

We say that there is 100% weight is on #1 but I don't that to be true for anyone here. Why else come and spend so much time reading and writing these threads if that is all that matters?

This reminds of a personal experience in another space. As some of you know, I am a fan of photographing wildlife and scenery. For years, people would ask to see my pictures and would be so shocked to hear me say I don't have hardly any of my images printed or uploaded to view online. It was hard to explain that for me, photography was more about being in a gorgeous place and capturing that one critical moment and seeing the results on my computer. That others saw it and appreciated it was not primary. I thought I was alone in this respect. Then I saw a PBS commercial of this fly fisher. You know, a guy standing in water wearing his chest waders, in some beautiful lake, throwing his line out with the light hitting it just so. Then the guy says, "when I catch a fish, it is almost anti-climactic. It is the experience that counts." Or something to that effect.

Another version of it is what sailors say to motor boaters: it is the journey that is fun and not necessarily getting to the destination. While when it comes to boating on in motor boating camp , in matters related to audio I am a sailor. I want to understand why something works the way it does. I want to discuss it with others. I like to have fun doing it. As I type this, we are having an issue in our showroom that I am trying to resolve. I spent the last 12 hours reading through countless technical articles to try to pin down the technical reason. Yes, we are doing the classic things of messing with the equipment and such. But even if I resolve the problem that way, I won't be satisfied unless I know "why." If I don't, it would be like the fly fisher going to a fish market to buy a fish instead of what he is going through!

This then, is at the heart of my disagreement with Greg in this thread. This device may actually do something. It is uninteresting to me if it does or doesn't to some extent. But learning why it might work and how to prove it does or does not, now that is satisfying!

 

[Gregadd]

Yes I did. Mark you know me so well.

Sorry, Greg. The Nigerian Marketplace is in danger of being worn out )

To avoid confusion that was not my recommendation. But I love it to. It also led me to rediscover Oscar Peterson.

 

[garylkoh]

Oops. You're right The Smokester recommended it. Like you, through Nigerian Marketplace I rediscovered Oscar Peterson and started digging deeper into his playlist.

I get to blame you for introducing me to Dee Dee Bridgewater and Marcus Roberts.

 

[garylkoh]

Your post was well reasoned. If I may add another perspective, there is more than one hobby/interest here:

1. Listing to music and enjoying one's system.

2. Interacting with other like-minded people.

3. Trying to convince others that your choices and beliefs in audio are more correct.

4. Learning what makes these technologies tick.

Thanks, Amir. I'm not 100% weighted on #1, but I'm also guilty of skipping the whole post if the first few lines I read makes it look like it's a #3 - which I am totally not interested in. I'm not trying to convince others that my choice or belief is more correct. Nevertheless, I am also interested in learning what makes these technologies tick, and interacting with other like-minded people is likely to advance my understanding and having an opposite points of views opens up new vistas to learning.

Hence, I think that show and experiment is more interesting than rhetoric. Like the Demagnetizer, there are some things that I *think* works, but I don't understand and cannot accept that it will work. And I'm willing to put in the effort to build an experiment to show that it does or does not work. I hadn't intended to do the demagnetizer, but that is a polarizing enough technology that I suspect the result might be enlightening.

 

[Gregadd]

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/furutech8/demag.html



[/url]http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/05/04/static-on-moving-object-forms-magnetic-field/

 

[fas42]

It was less than 15 years ago when I made a change that all of a sudden made massed strings really enjoyable.

Gary, it is always pleasing to find others who have experienced an epiphany in this game

May I be so bold as to ask what the change was, or is that a trade secret ...

Frank

 

[DonH50]

Earplugs?

(Sorry, what do you expect from a brass player!)

 

[garylkoh]

Frank, no trade secrets with me - I'll always tell you what I do. How I do it - that's for you to figure out.

I figured out that the stylus on phono cartridges might not have been mounted absolutely square on the cantilever. Alignment by the sides of the cartridge might not result in an absolutely aligned stylus with respect to the groove walls. Now, I always use a test LP with out-of-phase LR signal. Sum the output to mono and twist the cartridge until the signal goes to minimum.

 

[garylkoh]

For brass to sound right, the VTA has to be exact. So, while I mainly use measurement and a test LP to set-up a turntable, final tweaking is always listening. I find that the VTA/VTF/Anti-Skate/Azimuth/Alignment merry-go-round has to be finalized with lots and lots of listening.

 

[DonH50]

So, if I can just figure out how to adjust my VTA... Which reminds me, I need to practice! - Don