Reviewing the Furutec Demag

[FrantzM]

Hi

Slightly OT .. We will continue to see these .err.... things in High End Audio... Audiophiles, the convinced ones, at large will find a way to hear things they know they can't .. No amount of proofs will ever be sufficient when one wants to be convinced ...
It doesn't matter that the persons who made the "thing" can't explain how it works , thus how did they arrive at it (Suddenly , penicillin and Viagra pops up as examples of discovery that were not intended? Some will find ways to come with tenuous and flimsy explanations for such product since .. some people would have claimed to hear "vast" differences .. As it has become too customary, when knowledge is removed such perceptions vanish ...

If the goal was to stroke people emotions and have a good laugh at that , the thread may have succeeded if it was to further our enjoyment and understanding of our hobby it failed ... I think it was the former ...I am off

 

[Gregadd]

Frantz the purpose is to show how people respond to products like this. Therfore your response is right on point.

 

[Gregadd]

Ethan will just show that such an emf induced in the coil of the pick-up cartridge will be below the threshold of hearing.

Gary I just did a little research into those rubber/plastic refrigerator magnets. Yeah. Ferrite powder in the plastic. This is crazy!

 

[mep]

. It is incredible to me how people think these are private discussions and not on the general internet indexed by Google for the world to find. I landed on the above thread when researching something for the Truth and Tonality thread. I have to say, as another industry person, my head is low, very low. I don't care how upset he is about the accusations made against his manhood. He owes it to us as a group to represent us well with courteous language. It is not like someone is arguing 1+1 = 5 anyway. For all he knows, those people could be more right than him at least some of the time. But even if he thinks otherwise, he needs to manage his emotions better and stay objective and professional. I could not stand reading more of his hostile back and forth after a couple of pages.

Somehow I doubt that Fremer cares if his rant is public. By the way, Stereophile is a very liberal publication and their reviewers are not censored from using 4 letter words and other words that are banned here. You have built in Nanny software that censors certain words on WBF. Some people claim to be offended easily and others really are offended easily. I'm not in either camp. My point to Ethan when he was asking the question about how do you tell people that they can't hear what they think they hear and I said what did you say to Fremer was whatever he said to Fremer was obviously not the way to tell people they can't hear what they think they heard. Some people know how to push other people's buttons and I have met a few recently that possibly could push the Pope to say unkind things about someone's mother.

 

[amirm]

Somehow I doubt that Fremer cares if his rant is public.

That much is clear. Turns out *I* care about how he acts in public as it impacts the quality of discussions we have. Some might say if he can be that rude, maybe I can too.

By the way, Stereophile is a very liberal publication and their reviewers are not censored from using 4 letter words and other words that are banned here.

I don't follow. Reviewers are not after people when they write their reviews. If you mean answers to letters can be this rude, then that is another sad affair.

You have built in Nanny software that censors certain words on WBF. Some people claim to be offended easily and others really are offended easily. I'm not in either camp.

Let's be clear. We use the default in the software which is shipped to many people who use the same forum software. So we are following the norm in this virtual society.

I like to make sure the point is not lost. Nothing I said was about less than politically correct words. I am talking about how one responds to another person in the hobby. There is no justification whatsoever to talk the way he is. I can say you are an idiot or say I strongly disagree with what you are saying. Both do the same thing but one is far more proper. While I wish members like you also follow the same rules, it is absolutely essential that visible people in our industry do so. I don't come here to be called an idiot even if I am one .

My point to Ethan when he was asking the question about how do you tell people that they can't hear what they think they hear and I said what did you say to Fremer was whatever he said to Fremer was obviously not the way to tell people they can't hear what they think they heard. Some people know how to push other people's buttons and I have met a few recently that possibly could push the Pope to say unkind things about someone's mother.

You can Google Ethan's conversations with Fremer easily. I have. Bottom line is that if you come to a forum and make claims that intuitively don't make sense, then you need to control your emotions and answer properly especially when you have written about it in a magazine in an authoritative voice.

Anyway, we all have our standards of conduct. By that, Fremer's conduct is unacceptable to me. This is a hobby that is supposed to be fun. We are not solving for world peace. No one's life is threatened either. So any emotions that are risen, is uncalled for in grand scheme of things.

 

[mep]

I can say you are an idiot or say I strongly disagree with what you are saying. Both do the same thing but one is far more proper. While I wish members like you also follow the same rules, it is absolutely essential that visible people in our industry do so. I don't come here to be called an idiot even if I am one .

Amir-so if you tell me that you strongly disagree with me you are really saying I'm an idiot? Dab gummit. I was too dumb to catch on to that before.

 

[amirm]

Rats. My secret is out. Damn it Greg. This thread is my undoing! Oops, I used a bad word I shouldn't have.

 

[naturephoto1]

I like to make sure the point is not lost. Nothing I said was about less than politically correct words. I am talking about how one responds to another person in the hobby. There is no justification whatsoever to talk the way he is. I can say you are an idiot or say I strongly disagree with what you are saying. Both do the same thing but one is far more proper. While I wish members like you also follow the same rules, it is absolutely essential that visible people in our industry do so. I don't come here to be called an idiot even if I am one .

I much prefer it as Dan Aykroyd used to say to Jane Curtain: Jane you ignorant slut.

Rich

 

[Gregadd]

With that I'm off to the superbowl. BTW I pick Pittsburgh.

 

[Gregadd]

Ethan will just show that such an emf induced in the coil of the pick-up cartridge will be below the threshold of hearing.

 

[amirm]

Ethan will just show that such an emf induced in the coil of the pick-up cartridge will be below the threshold of hearing.

That's getting ahead of ourselves. First thing would be to show that a cartridge can pick up such infinitesimal reduction in magnetic field. Imagine using your simple voltmeter to read .0002 ohms. Not possible because the leads of the voltmeter has more resistance than that. By the same token, someone has to show that the cartridge output changes at all over its baseline noise. I suspect it will not. Because if it did, then the magnetic field from the motor would cause far more damaging results.

 

[Gregadd]

That's getting ahead of ourselves. First thing would be to show that a cartridge can pick up such infinitesimal reduction in magnetic field. Imagine using your simple voltmeter to read .0002 ohms. Not possible because the leads of the voltmeter has more resistance than that. By the same token, someone has to show n't a that the cartridge output changes at all over its baseline noise. I suspect it will not. Because if it did, then the magnetic field from the motor would cause far more damaging results.

That would be Furetechs' job. This layman found the thoery. My job is done. I await Garys' evaluation. If he is still so inclined.

 

[Bruce B]

In an earlier post Mike L. told you about the tweaks we did to the albums on our marathon day of recording. I found the files. This is a before and after of the recording using the tweak.
Rockport -> DartZeel -> Pacific Microsonics Model 2 at 176.4 -> Pyramix workstation

I've put both 176.4 and 44.1 files up for people that don't have a fast internet connection. They are in no particular order.. I'll tell you later.

Sample Files

 

[Ethan Winer]

If the theory is true degaussing is not the problem. Prof. Roberts thinks so or, See post #75 this thread, at least raised the issue.

Who is Prof. Roberts and what link do you mean? One link is to a breathless review of the Furu Demag at a site where every ridiculous tweak makes a huge audible difference. The other shows that a static charge can create DC, which of course makes sense but has no relation to audio. Even if a turntable spun at 1,800 RPM as is typical for small motors.

I would not call this proof but it may be cause for further investigation.

Okay, you investigate. When you have something concrete please let us know.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

The man represents good part of our industry and this is the language he uses to communicate:

That's along the lines of what I would have posted if I weren't a gentleman.

For all he knows, those people could be more right than him at least some of the time.

In the case of "demagnetizing" vinyl he is clearly wrong. What bothers me as much as the vile and insulting tone is his refusal to stick to the facts. I could post stuff far worse than your Fremer quotes from my emails with him, where I tried to engage him in a civil technical discussion. I'd spend 20 minutes writing a very clear and detailed explanation, only to have it dismissed with a single "You're a douche bag."

So with that out of the way I'd really like to see some proof that demagging vinyl actually changed the sound. Not "just listen" but actual proof. After all this time, with literally hundreds of discussions all over the web, I've still never seen any actual proof. Why is that? More important, why do some people continue to give demagging the benefit of the doubt?

--Ethan

 

[Gregadd]

Who is Prof. Roberts and what link do you mean? One link is to a breathless review of the Furu Demag at a site where every ridiculous tweak makes a huge audible difference. The other shows that a static charge can create DC, which of course makes sense but has no relation to audio. Even if a turntable spun at 1,800 RPM as is typical for small motors.



Okay, you investigate. When you have something concrete please let us know.

--Ethan

LOL. I could have phoned that one in for you. If I compared that with the majority of your answers on any forum, they go like this. It can't be true. If it is true you show me.If you do show me the effects are negligible. You never perform the test or provide the proof you demand of others. I guess that worksfor the faithful.

 

[Ron Party]

This thread continues to demonstrate the various approaches taken by the community at large when it comes to scrutinizing claims of audible differences.

I also see a revisiting of the question of who has the burden of proof, which Amir previously addressed here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...he-Furutec-Demag&p=37368&viewfull=1#post37368

With respect to the burden of proof issue, remember it is far, far easier to prove that there is an audible difference than it is to prove there is not.

In the context of this thread, which I believe Greg started merely to highlight my first point above, all of this begs the question: does anyone believe this matter will be proven to anyone's satisfaction?

 

[ted_b]

In an earlier post Mike L. told you about the tweaks we did to the albums on our marathon day of recording. I found the files. This is a before and after of the recording using the tweak.
Rockport -> DartZeel -> Pacific Microsonics Model 2 at 176.4 -> Pyramix workstation

I've put both 176.4 and 44.1 files up for people that don't have a fast internet connection. They are in no particular order.. I'll tell you later.

Sample Files

Bruce, I compared the 176k samples, and even on my measly desktop computer with audieongine 5's the Take One sample has wayyyy more cues and harmonics intact than take 2. Not sure which is "real" but the take 1 sounds livelier in my ears.

 

[manisandher]

Rockport -> DartZeel -> Pacific Microsonics Model 2 at 176.4 -> Pyramix workstation

So, you ended up getting a Model Two afterall??? Why is there no HDCD flag on these four files? I'm assuming you did some manipulation in Pyramix which 'broke' the flag, no?

FWIW, both 'take_2' files seem to have compressed transients compared to the 'take_1' files. The 176.4 files seem to have richer harmonic content compared to the 44.1 files. In any event, this is a great demonstration of how capable vinyl is...

Mani.

 

[Bruce B]

So, you ended up getting a Model Two afterall??? Why is there no HDCD flag on these four files? I'm assuming you did some manipulation in Pyramix which 'broke' the flag, no?Mani.

No, we used a PM2 that was brought to the recording. We've had several opportunities to to buy a PM2 (one just 2 weeks ago) and wish to decline. The only manipulation we did in Pyramix was to cut the file down to 1 minute and render out.