Reviewing the Furutec Demag

[microstrip]

(...)
If the US had more effective consumer protection laws, the vendor would be required to show proof of performance before being allowed to sell the product. I'm not advocating a "nanny state," but clearly consumer protection laws are mostly a good thing. (...)
--Ethan

I usually avoid replying to this type of provocative argument, but I am curious - would you next forbid all cable manufacturers of selling audio cables?

 

[Gregadd]

...Michael Fremer did this and there were measurement differences, however Ethan and a few others argued the case that the measurement will change between each play so it did not mean much ...

Wait a minute. Fremer did measurements and Ethan knew about it? Do you have any links to this?

 

[garylkoh]

May be to argue the case of the recording changing between each play, I can play a track on one side of an LP and record it, and then play the same track again and record it again. This will give the "control" of the changes in sound when a record is played twice in quick succession. And then on the other side of the LP, play a track and record it, and then demagnetize and play the same track again.

But I will emphasize again that I am not out to prove anyone right or wrong, or to convince anyone who does not want to be convinced. I will present the facts, and you can decide. Whatever decision you make, if it makes you happier, then I have succeeded.

 

[Bruce B]

But then I am only curious about what may be happening and as a digital fan boy it does not affect my listening hehe.
Cheers
Orb

We did this with SACD's and the 2 tracks nulled.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I've always been pretty skeptical about demagnetizing an LP, so I don't own one. But if I can get a hold of one, I'll make recordings of the same LP pre- and post- demagnetizing. Then, the only variable will be groove wear (playing the LP twice in quick succession), power (your neighbor turns on the microwave oven), and operator bias (I make a better/worse recording because the LP has been demagnetized).

i'm degrees less certain that a digital recording can reveal de-mag'ing effects on an Lp than they can Tourmaline gun effects; even in my system. i'm not sold on PCM capturing enough of the nuance of the signal. it will not surprise me if the difference is pretty faint.

as far as 'groove' wear' as a varible; no way in the short term. i've played the same cut 5 to 10 times in a row many many times with zero issues during cartridge set-up. in the last year i've likely done that 25 or 30 times as i was involved in some tonearm development and we did many many set-ups.

what is possible is a slight increase in tics or pops from accumulated dust....but typically that's not an issue either.

this is assuming a properly set-up and aligned cartridge, of course.

 

[Gregadd]

From Wikepdia.Plastic magnetFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
A plastic magnet is a non-metallic magnet made from an organic polymer. One example is PANiCNQ, which is a combination of emeraldine-based polyaniline (PANi) and tetracyanoquinodimethane (TCNQ). When it was created by researchers at the University of Durham in 2004 it was the first magnetic polymer to function at room temperature.

PANi is a conductive polymer that is stable in air. When combined with the free radical-forming TCNQ as an acceptor molecule, it can mimic the mechanism of metallic magnets. The magnetic properties arise from the fully pi-conjugated nitrogen-containing backbone combined with molecular charge transfer side groups. These properties cause the molecule to have a high density of localized spins that can give rise to coupling of their magnetic fields. When this polymer magnet is synthesized, the polymer chains need 3 months to line up before displaying any notable magnetism.

Plastic magnets could have uses in computer hardware, for example as disc drives and in medical devices such as pacemakers and cochlear implants where the organic material is more likely to be biocompatible than its metallic counterpart.

In February 2002, researchers from Ohio State University & University of Utah developed the world's first light-tunable plastic magnet. The plastic material became 1.5 times more magnetic when blue light shines on it. Green laser light reversed the effect somewhat, by decreasing the material's magnetism to 60 percent of its normal level. The plastic magnet was made from a polymer made of tetracyanoethylene (TCNE) combined with manganese (Mn) ions -- atoms of the metal manganese with electrons removed. The magnet functioned up to a temperature of 75 Kelvin (about -200ºC, or -325ºF).
A more common technique is to mix a ferrous powder into the plastic/rubber compound. You may recognize this a a common refridgerator magnet.

 

[Gregadd]

Wikepedia
ManufactureA paramagnetic compound (usually ferric oxide) is mixed with a plastic binder and then extruded into a sheet. It passes on a conveyor belt over a line of high-permeability cylindrical permanent magnets. These magnets are arranged in an alternating (<><><><>...) stack on a freely rotating shaft. This impresses the low-permeability plastic sheet with the magnetic poles in an alternating line format. Note that no electromagnetism is used. The pole-pole distance is on the order of 5mm, but varies with manufacturer. A refrigerator magnet will be neutralized ("erased") by passing it over a strong magnet (such as from a hard drive).

[edit] Magnetic polarization
Fridge magnet polarisationUnlike most conventional magnets that have distinct north and south poles, flat refrigerator magnets made from composite materials are often constructed with alternating north and south poles on the same surface of the plane; this can be felt by taking two similar (or identical) refrigerator magnets and sliding them against each other with the "magnetic" sides facing each other: the magnets will alternately repel and attract as they are moved a few millimeters. This construction gives twice the magnetism on one side and is thus more effective at keeping the large planar magnet uniformly stuck onto the steel refrigerator than a uniformly-polarized magnet would be. It is also responsible for making the front of the magnet (the picture side) nearly non-magnetic. The technical term for this arrangement is Halbach array.

 

[fas42]

Had a quick look at the two 44kHz tracks in Audacity, and there are huge differences between the two takes: I would almost swear they are two different microphone and recorder chains, or worse. Anyone who couldn't tell the difference must have very primitive gear ...

frank

 

[amirm]

what is possible is a slight increase in tics or pops from accumulated dust....but typically that's not an issue either.

It is interesting that you made that comment. I had a chance meeting with Bruce Brown today and before that, I spent some amount of time examining the two clips. First, it is clear that they are audibly different. One clip has higher noise level (both background and ticks) and paradoxically more open sound. Here is the waveforms. Look at the highlighted area at the beginning:

As Frank mentioned, it is kind of hard to imagine both being the same recording. I do have an explanation though or at least a guess . Analog noise can server to dither the signal that A/D converter sees and hence can change its performance. So to the extent the noise signature changes, we are also bound to see the A/D performance tracking it in unpredictable ways.

 

[Orb]

Wait a minute. Fremer did measurements and Ethan knew about it? Do you have any links to this?

It was digital recordings made that then could be analysed and measured for comparison.
The link is somewhere in the rants-general section of Stereophile forum, and from what I remember is over 70 pages long with MF doing this for the members somewhere a 3rd in I think.
I doubt Ethan would necessarily remember as it did not provide anything conclusive for him personally and several others.
Personally I felt follow-ups were required to gain more proof/validation, but IMO it was potential evidence something may be occurring.

Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

It is interesting that you made that comment. I had a chance meeting with Bruce Brown today and before that, I spent some amount of time examining the two clips. First, it is clear that they are audibly different. One clip has higher noise level (both background and ticks) and paradoxically more open sound. Here is the waveforms. Look at the highlighted area at the beginning:

As Frank mentioned, it is kind of hard to imagine both being the same recording. I do have an explanation though or at least a guess . Analog noise can server to dither the signal that A/D converter sees and hence can change its performance. So to the extent the noise signature changes, we are also bound to see the A/D performance tracking it in unpredictable ways.

And to me this becomes even more interesting when you considered the measurements Paul Miller has done recently looking at L-R and L+R, as mentioned one major benefit of the improved polymer/without black carbon is that it suffers less static, and I do wonder if this has affect on those parameters I mention.
Anyway thanks for the analysis there Amir as it is interesting.
Is it possible to explain a bit more where those 2 recordings came from (which type of LP - old or new with a good vinyl, and how as in just played twice and recording showed it changed that much in 2nd play - etc)?
Much appreciated.

Thanks
Orb

 

[garylkoh]

@Orb - the LP is Jun Fukamachi - At Steinway, a Toshiba Direct Disc.

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=5113

 

[Orb]

@Orb - the LP is Jun Fukamachi - At Steinway, a Toshiba Direct Disc.

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=5113

Thanks Gary.
But I was more hoping for info on how he made that comparison with one being audibly different
I am assuming it is the same LP just played twice and how they sounded different (just pops and noise or other aspects as well).

Thanks
Orb

 

[Ethan Winer]

would you next forbid all cable manufacturers of selling audio cables?

Of course not. The value of effective consumer protection laws is forcing sellers to back up their claims. This is very different from forbidding a class of products to be sold at all. Though I would make an exception for products based on homeopathy, because that entire category is fraudulent by definition.

--Ethan

 

[Gregadd]

It kind of boggles the mnd how man survived unitl the relatively recent era of "patent medicine." The body has the ability to heal itself. Homeopathy is just an attempt to assist that process. Ethan I sure would like you to help fight the toxic patent medicines. Not only do many of them not work, those that do work readily admit they maim and kill in thier own advertisements. You and I would be prosecuted for such acts.

You certainly came out swinging today. We all are going through hard times. Are you okay?

 

[garylkoh]

The demagnetizer used was not Furutec but the Acoustic Revive RL-30 Mk II de-magnetizer. Thanks to MikeL for the loan of the demagnetizer and BruceB for bringing the Korg MR200S digital recorder and helping with the recording.

This was done during club meeting, we have about 25 witnesses. The system is as described here:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2626-Upcoming-Meetings

The Korg recorded the datastream from the Weiss Minerva S/PDIF output. ADC was internal to the Burmester Ph100 outputting to 24bit/96kHz.

Here are the files direct from the Korg unit in 24-96 WAV.
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/downloads/Ella-Can'tWeBeFriends24-96_Take_1.wav

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/downloads/Ella-Can'tWeBeFriends24-96_Take_2.wav

Down-sampled to 16/44.1kHz with SoX.
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/downloads/Ella-Can'tWeBeFriends16-44.1_Take_1.wav

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/downloads/Ella-Can'tWeBeFriends16-44.1_Take_2.wav

 

[Lee]

I can offer a valid observation. A couple of years ago Classic Records reached out to me to try a single side sample of Blue Train on Clarity vinyl. They had mastered two different LPs exactly the same with one of them being on non-magnetic, clear "Clarity" vinyl. After playing both it was immediately obvious there was indeed more clarity and definition on playbacl.

So non-magnetic vinyl lives up to the claims imho so I would imagine that demagged LPs might offer up similar results.

 

[mep]

I'm going to have to listen to these files on my he-man rig and see if I can hear a difference. Playing them back through my shick-stick computer speakers isn't cutting the onions. By the way, I just received the latest edition of TAS and HP gave the furtech 5 stars and called it indispenisble. JA stuck his neck out and so did MF. So did MikeL (though with a different model that does the same thing). I'm thinking there is something to it. Those that live in digital glass houses sans turntables and LPs shouldn't be the first to cast stones at something that appears to be based on dubious claims/science and yet just might make a difference.

 

[amirm]

Those that live in digital glass houses sans turntables and LPs shouldn't be the first to cast stones at something that appears to be based on dubious claims/science and yet just might make a difference.

As long as they continue to make similar claims for CD, we can do that and then some . Read their web site and reviews: they all comment on similar improvements for CDs....And cables (and we all use those I think ).

 

[mep]

As long as they continue to make similar claims for CD, we can do that and then some . Read their web site and reviews: they all comment on similar improvements for CDs....And cables (and we all use those I think ).

Point well taken Amir. I just haven't read about anyone doing a demag on CDs and claiming they heard any difference. Have you? All I have heard about is LPs. Haven't heard about cables either.